What Co2 Diffuser

[RadaR]

Echinodorus species and Rotala can. btw they arent completely shut off from water. the roots and base of the plant will be submerged. There are videos showing how the plants are grown at these nurseries.
The other plants can be too.

 

[BigBadBurrow]

Get out! I am absolutely gob-smacked that those types of plants would be okay out of water. Would you still need some kind of mist, or are they fine provided the roots are in water?

 

[RadaR]

Tratropica on youtube has videos of the nurseries. I would post a direct link but I didnt know how to do that on my android.

 

[ian]

this is the link RadaR is talking about.

 

[BigBadBurrow]

Wow, that's a large-scale operation!

And, well that kinda throws my whole debate on its head - it's very possible those plants have Stomata if they're growing out of water and therefore absorb CO2 through the leaves. I'd never seen anything like that. Thanks for setting me straight - I'm keen to switch back to the mister now to see what difference it makes.

 

[SuperColey1]

Ian, those are amphibious plants, not fully submersed plants. If you take a fully-submersed plant (the ones I've been referring to) out of water for any prolonged time, they'll die.

Ian knows this isn't true from seeing with his eyes at my house and most of us have tried or seen DSM in action.

From what he sees at my house:
I grow plants emersed that I may use in the future. Most will transfer from emersed to the submersed in a tank with no probs. some will 'melt' and then come back. None will die from being transferred from emersed to submersed. So the ones that survive this transfer have stomata. They have to for them to be 'breathing' when emersed.

On the reverse I remove excess plants from my tank and put them into my emersed setup. This is quite different. Many will make the transfer fine. More will melt on this reversal than the other way round but they come back.

So a plant that was growing in emersed conditions and transferred into submersed (with no change in characteristic) must still have stomata otherwise it would have had trouble when emersed. The ones that melt 'may' being transitioning to a submersed characteristic and 'may' indeed therefore not have Stomata. However most of these melters are melting because they have been disturbed. Crypts are typical of this.

A lot of stem plants do go through a transition. There is a pic of Rotala emersed below and you may notice it looks very different to how Rotala looks in the tank. emersed it is robust and stands, in the tank it is weak and floppy. This may well work along the lines of the 'aquatic plant'. It may not have Stomata when it has made the transition. I don't know but I would not like to say it hasn't. Judging from Tom's explanation in the linked to thread I would guess it does but I cannot confirm this.

A good example of not changing are the supposed 'low light' supposed 'easy to care for plants' like Anubias, Microsorums etc. These will make the change with no change in their characteristics and no die off. These plants do not go through a transition so if they have Stomata to breathe in emersed conditions then they must still have Stomata when submersed. They don't change.

What conditions are we talking for an emersed setup? A humid environment and a substrate that has water to within and inch or so of the substrate surface. Yes the roots are in water but none of the plant. maybe the nurseries submerge the base of the plants but I don't. just water to an inch below the top of the substrate level.

DSM:
This is the dry start method where for example someone might want to have a lush lawn of HC for example. It is quicker to grow it emersed so they do the same as my emersed setups but in their tank with cling film over the top. A few weeks later, nice lush lawn and they flood it. Plant survives and away we go.

Pictures: HC taken from a tank (submersed). Laid on top of the pots, not planted, just laid on and then 3 weeks after you have these beauties

This is what I am describing above. A plant taken from submersed conditions and given 3 weeks in emersed conditions. Seems to have survived quite well

Lileopsis Brasiliensis a similar result:

And Crypts have no problem, they are most definitely Marsh plants and not aquatic plants:

Quite easy to set something like this up. Try it:

Echinodorus Angustifoliu
Rotala Macrandra
Ludwigia Inclinata
Blyxa Japonica

I'll give you the Blyxa. That is a true aquatic. You can add Vals to the list (I think.) Echinodorous sp, Rotala sp and Ludwigia Sp that you buy in the shops potted is nearly alway grown emersed. This is some Rotala Rotundifolia I grew in my Garden, yes Garden, last summer (with a poly tent on top). this is a 3ft x 2ft area covered. Remember I am in the UK not the tropics Oh and thats Parsley in the front of the pic. Photo hogger is Parsley.

Take any of those out of water for a prolonged period and they'll die - they are not grown "out of water"

See above

Wow, that's a large-scale operation!

And, well that kinda throws my whole debate on its head - it's very possible those plants have Stomata if they're growing out of water and therefore absorb CO2 through the leaves. I'd never seen anything like that. Thanks for setting me straight - I'm keen to switch back to the mister now to see what difference it makes.

Large is not the word. That is one of the largest 'aquatic plant' nurseries in the world. They are also the people who developed TPN (Tropica Plant Nutrition.) The guys in there are also responsible for discovering loads of plants which are now called for example Microsorum sp Tropica or Cryptocoryne Wendtii 'Tropica'. There are more nurseries like this. Aquafleur, FAN etc.

They are running a setup like mine on a huge scale. Much more complicated of course with water running in and out of each trough, and scientists doing research and stem cell whatnot

I'm glad you came back into the debate. We aren't here to humiliate. We don't want to put anyone down. We are here to educate and also be educated which is the great thing about the internet and the forums. We can help others but also correct our own knowledge. I prefer to say advance our knowledge than correct. We all share what we know or what we think we know and by both of these we ourselves learn more.

I could give a thousand examples of where I have stated something and been wrong and thats superb because I have then advanced my own knowledge. Not humiliated myself or put myself down or anything like that. I've accepted the correction and that makes me more knowledgable

I will definitely concede that the point you pulled from the link r.e. better distribution levels due to misting may well be a factor in the (alleged) improved growth. However I would suggest for the number of plants that do have Stomata that a nice bubble sticking to the leaf lets it 'breathe' that pure CO2 rather than fight to take it out of solution. Maybe we are 1-1 on that one. lol

However misting definitely works for me. Grows Needle Fern like nobodys business (no its not pearling as I only just turned the lights on for this picture

Works so well I have to sell it off every now and again. That is why I called my website GreenNeedle. lol

If you do want to test then make sure you give each a decent time. a week, 2 weeks is not long enough. Then try to evaluate if the results are actually usable. It's very hard to do 'like for like' tests with something like aquatic plants. All sorts of things can affect the results.

Welcome to the project

Regards
Andy

 

[BigBadBurrow]

Andy, Ian, I've no problem admitting I was wrong and you were 100% right, and I'm sorry for my previously (rather rude) tone. I honestly had no idea that so many of the plants you purchase for aquariums could grow in this way!

I'm glad I've been set right because this basically opens up a whole new thought process in my head about how to diffuse CO2 - even though the reactor does diffuse the CO2 into the water best, perhaps it's actually not what's most beneficial to the plants - perhaps they prefer to have the actual gas floating around the tank...

Andy; do you grow these plants to sell on, or just for private use?

 

[Dan-CR4]

wow this really went off topic since I last checked this thread. I was only asking what co2 diffuser would people recommend, now im seeing videos of plant factories, . Just to update you all, I ordered a glass diffuser and I broke that one as well, was not happy about that, as that was £9 down the drain, then I ordered one of the in tank mist atomizer or whatever its called. got that in the post this morning and have installed it, looks like its working fine as the co2 is getting through ok. so thanks to everyone who replied to my original question

 

[SuperColey1]

Andy; do you grow these plants to sell on, or just for private use?

I used to grow them to sell on however new baby means wife has nicked my 'emersed' cupboard so now I only sell excess when I rescape (not very often )

And

 

[BigBadBurrow]

D'oh, but congrats on the new arrival!

Dan-CR4: as a result of this thread I've order a UP inline diffuser and an UP atomizer, aka Bazooka.

What I'm quite keen on is getting full flow back from my external filter by using an inline diffuser instead of the external reactor. I think the reactor does kill the flow out of my filter, but if it's inline then there'll be no difference in flow. My only concern with this is that the outlet from my filter is at the top of the tank. So if I notice I'm not getting good CO2 flow around my tank, i.e. it all goes to the surface, then I may remove the inline diffuser from the outlet of my external filter, and instead plonk it on the end of a submersible pump and put it at the bottom of the tank for better circulation.

I'll post an update of my findings.

 

[SuperColey1]

D'oh, but congrats on the new arrival!

Dan-CR4: as a result of this thread I've order a UP inline diffuser and an UP atomizer, aka Bazooka.

What I'm quite keen on is getting full flow back from my external filter by using an inline diffuser instead of the external reactor. I think the reactor does kill the flow out of my filter, but if it's inline then there'll be no difference in flow. My only concern with this is that the outlet from my filter is at the top of the tank. So if I notice I'm not getting good CO2 flow around my tank, i.e. it all goes to the surface, then I may remove the inline diffuser from the outlet of my external filter, and instead plonk it on the end of a submersible pump and put it at the bottom of the tank for better circulation.

I'll post an update of my findings.

The inline atomiser is basically a ceramic tube with a casing. The CO2 goes into the casing and goes through the pores of the ceramic tube into the flow. Works both ways. When the CO2 is off the water fills up the casing. So when the CO2 is on the pressure pushes the water back into the tube and then CO2 passes through into the tube.

Will reduce flow nowhere near as much as a reactor.

So with the inline the only flow restriction is going from a smooth unbroken hose to where the hose meets the atomiser and where it exsits back to the smooth hose again. This is the same as smooth hose meeting reactor input etc. So that minimal restriction is the same in that water passes a long the smooth hose much easier than where there is a ridge disrupting this smooth surface.

The reactor though has obstructions in it. That is part of how it works with bio balls or sponge etc to help break up the bubbles. So with a reactor you purposefully put stuff in that disrupts the flow.

Unless you got one of the old Boyu externals (pictured below) then I'm not sure if it can go in tank. However shouldn't be a problem. If bubbles are going to the surface then it won't be the atomiser causing the problem just as with an in tank ceramic disc. It is the flow within the tank. Thats why so many people use a circulation pump (or pumps) to boost the flow.

This is the old style Boyu inline diffuser. I've put this in because it shows what you can't see inthe UP atomiser. This was the first though. Not as small bubbles as the atomiser. No idea why. maybe larger pores or something however it's a good example to show what I mean above. You can see that in the centre of the unit is a white ceramic tube. This is just a continuation of the hose. Then you have an empty space inbetween the ceramic tube and the outer casing. So there isn't a flow restriction really. Exactly the same as the Up atomiser, just not as pretty and it seems that the Up atomiser has improved the performance r.e. bubble size.

Here it is inline:

And trying it inside the tank (I was trying quite a few different options at this point. lol)

After all that faffing about I ended up putting the Rhinox disc back in. lol

r.e. restrictions on flow. I removed a super dooper Vecton2 UV from my inline for the very same restriction of pointless items reducing flow Ahhh then I replaced it with an inline heater. lol. however the heater is straight through so minimal restriction where the UV had multiple bends within it. lol

Andy

 

[BigBadBurrow]

I notice you've got two drop checkers in your tank - do they ever give different readings?

 

[BigBadBurrow]

Also, you've not been tempted to try an UP inline atomizer?

 

[SuperColey1]

Lol. You're scanning again I AM using the Up inline. hence saying the Boyu wasn't quite as good (whlist still being good) The Boyu is form a picture of a scape in 2008.

I used 2 drop checkers for a while when I was trying to sort some flow and CO2 issues out at the time. I only use a DC now as reference really. Tells me if something is going dramatically wrong but don't really use it for anything other than a 'warning' sign. I can see from the fish plants and any algae that arises if something needs altering.

AC

 

[BigBadBurrow]

Not scanning, quite the opposite in fact, I read "After all that faffing about I ended up putting the Rhinox disc back in." so I thought that meant you'd switched back to a ceramic in-tank diffuser? Anyway, all cleared up now.