Well I Got So P***ed Off.........

[Spiceweasel69]

Rodders : the obvious thing to do would have been to offer the plants on Georges new thread instead of bin them. You may have even made something back on them.

Seems such a waste.

 

[Ste_J]

I beg to differ, I have never have and never will use this method. The few people on here that advocate adding Nitrate and Phosphate are the first and only people I've ever heard doing it.

Have a scan around the larger pond and you will find that many people including some very respected aquatic plant growers are actively using this method. Yeah I agree that you may hardly have ever seen this being used in the UK but over the pond there are many users of Nitrate and Phosphate.

I'm not into dosing in heavy amounts at the moment as it doesn't do anything for my Tank although the theory behind it is sound enough.

Check out places like the Barr report for more information and you will get the general idea - there are also a couple of very respected US sites that offer detail on this very subject.

There are counltess sources of info in books, magazines and on the net stating what I keep saying.

There are also just as many sources of info that state what is being said on here also.

You'll notice as well all the people posting on here with algae problems are dosing with Nitrate and Phosphate...

Agree to a certain point with you on this one although could that be that these people have just not found the right level of dosing for their tank? Mine only needs Nitrate adding after my water change along with Iron etc. Trace is then added through the week and my Nitrate rarely gets higher than 25 or lower than 20 - fish don't mind it and I couldn't deplete my platy stock if I tried. All other fish in the tank look stunning also.

 

[pseud]

I beg to differ, I have never have and never will use this method. The few people on here that advocate adding Nitrate and Phosphate are the first and only people I've ever heard doing it.
All other details regarding planted tanks state get Nitrate as low as possible and eradicate phosphate - simple.
I think your statement of it works for a lot of people is the other way around, adding Nitrate and phosphate only works for a few people, I think through luck and fast growing plants rather than judgement.
There are counltess sources of info in books, magazines and on the net stating what I keep saying.

You'll notice as well all the people posting on here with algae problems are dosing with Nitrate and Phosphate...

In all my years of keeping plants this place is the first place I've ever come across this odd practice.

But, if you want lush algae growth, just keep adding the Nitrate and Phosphate, you never know you may even find some fish that like Nitrate.

Ste_J pretty much said everything that I wanted to say, but I'm gonna say it again anyway.

There are PLENTY of people who subscribe to the fertilization methods. Many of these people are considered 'professionals' in the planted tank community. Ste already mention Tom Barr, and you should probably check out http/showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005...ge&name=welcome and see how many winning aquascapes are dosing NPK.

I'll give you that fertilizing NPK is new to the hobby, but if this is the first place you've come across it then you obviously haven't looked that far. The two major aquatic plant sites also advocate fertilizing.

I'd also like to add that I personally fertilize, without an algae problem. If I stop dosing however, the algae takes over. You need to read more on the dosing to understand it, and then maybe you'll open your mind a little more. Like Ste said, it takes a balance.

 

[steve711]

If that's the case then how come Rowaphos phosphate remover is such a huge success and even states you can now feed your fish and not your algae??
It is even used in Germany to remove algae from reservoirs.

And, many companies sell Nitrate removal filters.

Many Dutch aquarium resources advocate eliminating Nitrate, no disrespect but I think the Dutch have the upper edge when it comes to planted tanks.

Take a look in Dennerle's book 'System for a problem free aquarium' and read page 33. It states 0mg/l of Nitrate to be very good and advises the use of Biotrop stabiliser to remove Nitrate to help prevent algae.

I guess we'll never agree on this but millions spent by the big companies like Dennerle, even the advice of fishkeeping magazines in the UK must all be wrong.

If adding phosphate and Nitrate is so right, how come you don't find it readily available in aquarist outlets ready made up? you have to source the powders elsewhere and make up the 'correct' dose yourself.

 

[lljdma06]

If adding phosphate and Nitrate is so right, how come you don't find it readily available in aquarist outlets ready made up? you have to source the powders elsewhere and make up the 'correct' dose yourself.

Seachem products have the entire range of liquid fertilizers, from Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Iron, Trace, ect. These products are commonly sold online. I get mine at Big Al's. But I live in the US. This is what I use in my tank.

 

[zig]

If that's the case then how come Rowaphos phosphate remover is such a huge success and even states you can now feed your fish and not your algae??
It is even used in Germany to remove algae from reservoirs.

And, many companies sell Nitrate removal filters.

Many Dutch aquarium resources advocate eliminating Nitrate, no disrespect but I think the Dutch have the upper edge when it comes to planted tanks.

Take a look in Dennerle's book 'System for a problem free aquarium' and read page 33. It states 0mg/l of Nitrate to be very good and advises the use of Biotrop stabiliser to remove Nitrate to help prevent algae.

I guess we'll never agree on this but millions spent by the big companies like Dennerle, even the advice of fishkeeping magazines in the UK must all be wrong.

If adding phosphate and Nitrate is so right, how come you don't find it readily available in aquarist outlets ready made up? you have to source the powders elsewhere and make up the 'correct' dose yourself.

They are all wrong and so are you.

Im not going to even bother trying to explain it to you, because with all due respect you obviously have not done your homework and are stuck in old school type practices, what you advocate is fine for planted tanks with low amounts of light, but if you try and run a highlight tank and have depleted levels of nitrate or phosphate you will get algae that i can guarentee.

So if you do a bit of homework and then come back and argue your case, try sticking a thread on The Planted Tank? (probably the most respected forum for planted tank enthusists in the world)saying that you dont need to add nitrate or phosphate to any planted tank and see what response you get, i guarentee the response will be very negative to your particular point of view, search around that site anyway and see how many references you get to the addition of KNO3 (potassium nitrate) and PO4 (phosphate) and enlighten yourself as to the modern methods of fertiliseing planted tanks.

Btw the Dennerle system is considered old hat at this stage, and lets not even get started on the quality of UK based aquarist magazines as regards planted tanks.........they haven't a clue.

Edit: Sorry rodders we seem to be going a bit off track here, sorry for your troubles mate hopefully second time round all will be good.

 

[simonbrown403]

adding nitrates to 30ppm,nothing worked and algae almost made me do the same thing,so i went back and added a few more red ludwig and some moneywort or pennywort,whatever it was and left everything alone and added nothing for about a month and things are turning around finally..the algae is dying slowly and my plants look much more happier..

after two weeks added a small amount of phosphate....

You hit the nail on the head, you did nothing and it's starting to work.

Throw your Nitrate and phosphate in the bin - you don't need to add them.
Get yourself some Seachem Flourish, Tropica Mastergrow or something similar, a pressurised CO2 system and see how you go.

This is really bad advice mate and i wish you would stop giving it. It works for lots of people, just didnt work for you.

I beg to differ, I have never have and never will use this method. The few people on here that advocate adding Nitrate and Phosphate are the first and only people I've ever heard doing it.
All other details regarding planted tanks state get Nitrate as low as possible and eradicate phosphate - simple.
I think your statement of it works for a lot of people is the other way around, adding Nitrate and phosphate only works for a few people, I think through luck and fast growing plants rather than judgement.
There are counltess sources of info in books, magazines and on the net stating what I keep saying.

You'll notice as well all the people posting on here with algae problems are dosing with Nitrate and Phosphate...

In all my years of keeping plants this place is the first place I've ever come across this odd practice.

But, if you want lush algae growth, just keep adding the Nitrate and Phosphate, you never know you may even find some fish that like Nitrate.

I to use this method, like any planted tank i revolves around balance, you first need to find the balance in your tank.
At first i had algae blooms and problems, i dose as recommended for a 20gal tank, in the end i ended up cutting my ferts down by half, which did the trick for me.
Every tank is different, different plants, different needs the EI method is a guide a method of dosing your ferts to make sure there is a constant supply nutrients for your plants to use so algae doesn't get a look in.

 

[danski]

i hope no one gets me wrong because i do plan on still fertelizing my tank with my dosing. just like what was said earlier its about finding the balance..my tank is not new unless 8 to 9 months is still new i dont really know. just for me going back and keeping things simple is starting to work out for me..im sure i will need to keep dosing something i just need to find what my plants require..if it works for the majority then it will probably work for me just need to keep experimenting till i find the sweet spot..till then the quest for that beautiful lush tank is something i will strive to accomplish so i can post some great pictures of my accomplishment, and help others do the same..although i must admit none of my stuff will be binned soon..

and dont get me wrong im with you guys..just thought i would add in this thread that scaling back has had a good impact for me because i think i was too gung ho on all my EI and im sure i over did things which caused problems for me,but im gettin the feel for my tank now..it just takes time and patience. i never thought i could leave things alone but my 7 day hospitalization and a week for recovery kind made sure i didnt touch thing or im sure i would still be on my EI and trying to figure out what im doing wrong,and im sure my plants will need my loving care and feeding..thats all from me off to gaze at my tank..

 

[Rodders]

A little off-topic, but isn't it normal for new tanks to almost always experience some kind of algae bloom in the beginning? Mine did just that. Although I expected it to happen, I did freak out a bit to see my plants and glass smothered in brown, hair and staghorn algae. I just kept cleaning it to keep the plants from suffocating. Things are getting better though, the hair and staghorn has stopped growing, and the brown algae is almost out of the door. I didn't fiddle with the co2, lighting, ferts etc at all. I would have ripped the tank apart too, had I not known these blooms were normal (for a new tank) !

Its a 4 month old tank mate.

Rodders : the obvious thing to do would have been to offer the plants on Georges new thread instead of bin them. You may have even made something back on them.

Seems such a waste.

All the plants were crap mate, brown leaves, dead leaves, covered in algea. No one would have wanted them, trust me.



Think im going to stay off the planted route for a little while. Going to get all my wood and rocks etc... set up how I want it and then go from there.

 

[iggy01]

steve711,

It sounds like you have been in this hobby for quite a while. The idea of dosing nitrate, phosphate, potassium etc, is a totally alien concept to you. I understand where you're coming from. This concept goes against everything you've ever learned about keeping a planted tank. I was exactly the same until about 18 months ago. I was surfing some of the American forums and a bloke called Tom Barr was giving advice to people who were having algae problems.

It was a recurring theme. He'd ask what their nitrate, phosphate, CO2 levels were and he'd tell them they were too low. They needed to be raised. At first I thought this was a load of rubbish. How can this be I thought, it goes against everything I know. The more I read, the more I became intrigued. People were reporting back with fantastic results, better growth, less algae. I decided to give it a go myself and haven't looked back since. I can now grow plants with minimal algae. Mind you, I still can't aquascape to save my life, but that's another story. My plants are happy, so that's ok

The bottom line is..... there's more than one way to skin a cat. Your way works for you, which is fine. Estimative Index works for others, which is also fine.


Rodders,

Sorry to hear about your problems. If you decide to start a planted tank again, the one piece of advice I would give you would be to be patient whenever you make a change. Whether you add more ferts, less ferts, more/less CO2 etc, you need to give each change about 3 weeks before deciding whether it has worked or not.

Good luck!

 

[steve711]

Well, I'm still not convinced.

Zig, if you call 3x125 Mercury Vapour lights not 'high light' then I guess you must be using metal halides ideal for marines.

Anyway, I'm moving house in the next couple of months and I'm going to set up a tank your way and one mine and I will post the results on here, pictures and all, I'll be up front and honest about it and if your way works I'll admit it, but if not then the results will be in glorious algae technicolour.

 

[jimbooo]

my 2 cents

take a look at our members tank gallery. the vast majority are using EI and just look at the terrible state of all our tanks.

look at all that algae!!!

members tanks gallery

sorry too tired to add more than that, got to bed at 3.30am after ripping apart gf225's tank and transferring to mine.... (waiting for the inevitable.........)

 

[Rodders]

Nice little battle of the minds going on here over ferts...

Well two days on, I turned the lights on this morning and the water ir practically crystal clear (everything takes ages on a 145gal tank)
Anyway, so something must have been doing it cause now its all nice. but pretty empty....
Still going to leave it for a while and monitor it.
Maybe I fiddle too much cause my mate just chucks in plants, admittinly only a few, but they just grow like crazy. He doesnt add CO2 ferts or worry about lighting. He has no algea, crystal water etc.... better get him down to do mine, lol

 

[steve711]

I will confess the results look impressive but it's too difficult for me to go against all I've learnt from long standing respected experts, companies like, Dennerle, Dupla, Bioplast, Rowa (Rowaphos), companies that specifically make filters remove Nitrate.

Rowaphos is even marketed stating Phosphate is the biggest cause of algae.

I guess time will tell.

Out of interest, do you all use T5 lights, if so, what brand, spectrum combinations etc.

 

[jimbooo]

i know where your coming from. i used to think along the same lines.

i use T8 lighting (7500K x2, 3000K x1, 4000K x1) all full spectrum.

in a low light tank ie under 1 WPG your theorys are still correct however in a high light environment with co2 addition the plants growth rate and nutrient appitite are vastly increaced hence the fertalisation.

the vast majority of planted tanks in the hobby are low light hence why there are so many products catering for their needs. adding a nitrate removal sponge to my rio180 causes BGA - blue green algae. i have seen this with my own eyes. cant say more than that really.