Wcmm's, The Tropical Coldwater Fish...?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I have had my white cloud mountain minnows for a couple of months now and they are really thriving.
I was reading though the other day that these fish are acutually coldwater. I have also read they are really tropical fish that can also thrive in coldwater...and i have also read they are really just true tropical fish, but some people believe its fine to chuck them in coldwater tanks.
Obviously im getting a little confuzzled now .

I keep my main tank where my WCMM's live at a steady 25degrees, sometimes 24 or 26 though depending on how hot the weather is or cold the nights are of course though. I noticed on quite a few occasions my WCMM's have been displaying what i believe is mating behavior, which is quite stunning(2 males will pair off and swim very fast side by side with they lower fins extended and shining zooming up and down the tank while a female/s looks on). Im planning on getting another 21, to add to my current 9, when i get another 125 UK gal tank in a couple of weeks.

I want my fish to be as happy and content as they could be, but i would be quite concerned if WCMM's are actually true coldwater fish and i am causing them harm by keeping them in tropical temps. Could anyone shed some light on what exactly are they ?
Many thanks for your time .

 

[daza]

I keep 5 of them, and I agree that their mating behaviour is stunning to watch, especially when they swim around in circles.

They are considered sub-tropical and like temperatures in the high teens - low twenties I have read.

But like you I can never get my tank to stay that low, it is normally about 25C. I have never had a temperature related problem in the 1.5 years I've had them - they stay active, colourful, appear stress free. In the summer my tank tends to stay at or above 28C and I've had no problems. I have read about people putting them in ponds in the summer.

One of my LFS keep them in two seperate tanks, one labelled tropical wcmm and one labelled coldwater wcmm - so I guess their practice is to acclimatise them from a young age. I don't know if there is any acceptance behind that though.

The Wolf posted in another thread recently that their metabolism will be speeded up by higher temperatures and therefore their life will be reduced. That's one of those things which is hard to measure/confirm though I guess.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Cool, cheers for the info, do you think its wrong though to keep them in freshwater though? How long is their average life expectancy do you know?

 

[daza]

They are freshwater fish so that's fine. I've no idea of life expectancy, never seen a mention of it anywhere (just looked in my Baensch book too).

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

They are freshwater fish so that's fine. I've no idea of life expectancy, never seen a mention of it anywhere (just looked in my Baensch book too).

Sorry i accidently wrote "freshwater" instead of "tropical temps" ) .So...is keeping them in tropical temps generally accepted and ok?

 

[daza]

That's probably debatable to be honest. I would say it isn't ideal, and if I thought they were unhealthy or stressed by it then I woudn't keep them, but when they appear perfectly healthy then I guess they are getting a better home than some other people out there may provide.

I can't lower my tank temperature any more. It's a small tank in a fairly small and normally warm flat.

 

[Weaver]

Just been googling and apparently the lifespan is between 2 and 10 years
I remember a post about them a few months ago and it was suggested that they were a neither a tropical or a coldwater fish due to the temperatures in the Chinese streams they originate from.It was also said that they should really be kept in a species tank.
I keep mine in my biggest tank which is about 25 degrees and although I know it isnt optimum conditions for them they seem to do ok.Beautiful little fish

 

[The-Wolf]

the average lifespan of a WCMM is 5 years however there are unconfirmed reports of 7+ years

the best temp for these is between 18-22c however they can take temps as low as 5c
due to their natural streams containing snow melts in the spring.

they also need a fast flow, again this is because their natural habitat is fast flowing mountain streams.

and just to confirm; they are classified sub-tropical

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hm, thanks for the info, well the main tank my WCMM's are living in has 4 filters so it has a strong and steady current. I adopted these wcmm's from a friend with the promise i would never rehome them, and i don't want to rehome them, but i take it they are fine in a tank fo 25degrees? As far as i know, they are already 2yrs old.

 

[sylvia]

Higher temps. typicaly reduce a fish' life expectancy. This is because, fish being cold-blooded, their metabolism speeds up as temp. increases.

This is most obvious when you own short-lived species such as guppies if anyone's interested in testing the concept Even within an 'accepted' range, a higher temp results in faster growth rate and a shorter life while a lower temp results in slower growth but a longer life...

With fish that are not evolved to live in warmer or colder water, keeping them within an unnatural range of temperatures tends to result in them becoming stressed and succumbing to disease more easily. This is particularly evident in common goldfish that are kept in tropical tanks or in bettas kept in cold water.

With WCMM, as The Wolf rightly said, they are sub-tropical (somewhat like hillstream loaches for example) and shouldn't realy be kept under tropical conditions. However, being an extremely hardy, adaptable species, they can deal with it much better than your average community fish. This doesn't mean it's good for them, nor does it mean they are escaping the side effects of shortening the lifespan and making them more susceptible to disease.

I only work in deg F usualy (64-72 being ideal for WCMMs), but I trust The Wolf has the right temps down in deg C If you realy want your WCMM to be happy, consider startiing a new tank made as a river biotope. WCMMs, hillstream loaches, weather loaches, red shiners, rudo, bitterlings, fathead minnows/rosy reds, even american-flag fish or zebra danios - all sorts of fish fit into this niche if you are careful to only pick compatible species that do well at the temps. you decide on (as they range quite a bit) and you can build up quite a unique set-up around them.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hmmm.....
..... ..... .....
......hmm......
Im at a moral dilema right now or whatever you call it...want to do whats best for fish, but...mts....must, not....get anymore tanks....no space....happy fish.....

!!

Silly question(probably), but would a 10gal be ok for 9 wcmm's on their own...?

 

[sylvia]

Not for 9, no. A 20 would and you could add some more tankmates too. Go on - a 20 doesn't cost that much

edit: Actualy, a 15 would just about cut it for 9 WCMMs on their own as well but I always preffer to give cyprinids more space because they tend to be active.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Damn .
Hmm..... ..... ..... .....
Could a betta live i a tank at 22degrees happily...? I have a 30gal hex tank, 2ft tall and 1ft wide, that could fit in the place of my 10gal betta tank, but then again that would mean getting rid of the 10gal...and i would have no well else suitable for the betta to live, unless it could go in the hex tank? hmmmm....

edit: im gonna have to think on this one a bit, i technically don't really have anymore tank space even though i have a spare tank, im getting some more large tanks once my kitchen floor is done, soo...I will keep you updated and see if i can separate the wcmm's into their own semi-coldwater tank soon .
Thanks for everyones time, info and help, i really appreiciate it .

 

[sylvia]

About the betta - it can, technically, survive in the lower temp but it suffers similar problems to what the WCMM suffer at a higher temp. Seems pointless to cause the betta distress when the WCMMs are better equipped to handling the difference instead. What I mean is, why put the betta through that change when the WCMMs are already in the not-so-ideal environment but dealing with it fine? WCMMs are much hardier than bettas after all. If you are going to try to improve the WCMM's environment, make sure you aren't compromising another fish to do so. The real issue though is that the WCMM would like a good, strong current - which a betta does not .

Anyway, don't worry too much. The WCMMs are not in an ideal environment but, like I said, they can deal with it quite well. Just be aware of the issue and try to set it right as soon as you can.

 

[waldo]

I had white clouds in my heated tank, they reached adult size quick and started to die off so I threw the last few in a unheated, unflitered heavily planted tank , a couple of weeks later I found them a new home. I completly forgot about the tank, I never checked it or turned the light on, a few weeks later after about half the water evaporated I decided it was time to clean the tank up and store it and guess what I found?? Baby white clouds, so I guess they liked the cooler water.