Water Problem

[hawkeye121]

hi im ian
from milton keynes

this is my first forum ever( and i have had a computer for 12 years)
would be glad to hear from anyone with any advice for my problem

having kept fish for 20 years, in a 4 foot tank using an udergravel filter, i bought a new tank in september 2005. a juwel trigon 190. my problem is with water quality which when tested is 7.6ph or above.
this filtration system uses several filters
2 biologal
1 course blue
1 green ammonia
1 black carbon
1 white filter

i regularly change these filters when they should be changed and do a partial water change using water safe
the tank isn't over crowded as i only have about 17 smallish fish.
the largest is a clown loach which gets white spot, the other 3 small clowns dont appear to suffer any illness
the trouble is whilst treating the white spot i have to remove the carbon and green filter, which makes the water even poorer. the large clown has stopped eating and its mouth appears open more than usual, although i cant see any fungus or anything. by the time i put back the 2 filters ive removed, its time to treat agian, so im in a catch 22 situation, going full circle
many thanks

 

[Tolak]

What do you mean by making the water quality poorer? Results of water tests would help with this.

Carbon is really not needed, unless you are removing meds. Some people swear by it, but it needs to be changed weekly to do anything. It is supposed to give sparkling clear, odor free water, which it does seem to do with the tank at work. The owner's son spends a small fortune on Black Diamond. I can't see doing this with 14 tanks at home. Some research implicates carbon as being related to hith, especially in discus & oscars. I'd rather not take the chance.


I have never used any ammonia removing filter, and see no reason to do so. A cycled tank will convert the ammonia to nitrite through the nitrifying process. By removing the carbon & green ammonia filter you will have more room for bio filtration, which will be better for the fish.

My pH is between 7.6 to 7.8. Most fish will acclimate to this pH just fine. I have no problems breeding nw cichlids with this water.


What specific med are you using for ich? The best bet may be doubling the length of treatment, especially with loaches, who are prone to this. If the water quality seems to suffer during treatment, more frequent water changes are probably needed.

Best bet would probably be a smaller hospital tank for the sick loach. You will use less meds, keep the sick fish seperate from fish that aren't sick, and it will be easier to observe the sick fish. A 10 gallon should work fine for this.

BTW, welcome to TFF!

 

[Bloo]

to the forum Ian !
A pity you are having problems at the moment. I've never kept Clown Loaches, so not the best person to give you advice on them. However I do know they are highly prone to white spot and very sensitive to medications.

I will ask one of the moderators to move the most across to the emergency section where more people will be able to help you.

What I can tell you though, is that you really do not have to worry about your pH. All of us here in London have far harder water with a higher pH and still successfully keep our community fish. Once you start to reduce your pH chemically, you start running into problems as your pH swings and fluctuate.

Also, the carbon pad is really not necessary to use on a day to day basis. It should generally only be used to remove medications, or you have excess particles in the water. If it's for the latter, a water change would be better

Something that concerns me a bit though: why do you "change" these sponge pads on a regular basis?
I know the manufacturer says they should be replaced every few weeks, but in reality there is no reason to do so. Many of us haven't changed our blue pads for years, or unless they start disintegrating.
The white pad however I rinsed or completely replaced on a weekly basis.

The Carbon pad should be replaced after a few weeks as they only have a limited life.
But when you remove an entire pad, you also remove a certain amount of good bacteria. And this can cause small swings in the water parameters and possibly also lead to a mini spike in nitrite. This in turn stressed the fish and can lead to white spot.

I never used the ammonia pad (instead had another blue pad) and not sure what their life span is. Perhaps someone else who uses them will know.

All you need to do is rinse your blue pads in some siphoned tank water when you do your weekly water changes.

Hope this helps for now

Edit: Tolak, I see we posted at the same time. Good to know we think along the same lines

 

[monkeyman]

Hi Ian, Welcome to the forum... Are you sure the green filter isnt a nitrate removal sponge? Can you list how often you change your pads please?

 

[Bloo]

Hi Ian, Welcome to the forum... Are you sure the green filter isnt a nitrate removal sponge? Can you list how often you change your pads please?

I think you are right monkeyman I never used the alternative sponge.

 

[hawkeye121]

thanks for your quick reply to my problems
the carbon filter according to juwel should be changed every 4-6 weeks, and says removes chemical impurities from the water which cant be removed biologically. the green filter is for nitrate removal.
if you log on to the juwel web site it explains the complete filter system in detail. i have always been used to an under gravel filter so this type of filtration which i have now is new to me
the med im using for ich is interpet no 6 anti white spot. there are 2 bio pads at the bottom of the filtration system and only 1 needs to get ceaned every 3-6 months. the coarse blue sponge is cleaned or replaced every 6-12 weeks. the green filter is changed every 6 weeks.
thanks to Monkeyman, Tolak and Bloozoo 2, hope this answers most of your reply questions
thanks again

 

[diademhill]

thanks for your quick reply to my problems
the carbon filter according to juwel should be changed every 4-6 weeks, and says removes chemical impurities from the water which cant be removed biologically. the green filter is for nitrate removal.
if you log on to the juwel web site it explains the complete filter system in detail. i have always been used to an under gravel filter so this type of filtration which i have now is new to me
the med im using for ich is interpet no 6 anti white spot. there are 2 bio pads at the bottom of the filtration system and only 1 needs to get ceaned every 3-6 months. the coarse blue sponge is cleaned or replaced every 6-12 weeks. the green filter is changed every 6 weeks.
thanks to Monkeyman, Tolak and Bloozoo 2, hope this answers most of your reply questions
thanks again

I've used Juwel filters for years. Their replacement regime is designed to sell filter pads - ignore it!

Just use blue sponges - 2 of each and rinse these in water taken from the tank about once a month. Replace the white prefilter every week or two.
If you need carbon you can put some in a pop sock on top of the stack to remove meds etc but it isn't needed on a regular basis.
IME the fine sponges last about two years & the coarse ones much longer.
HTH
Sue

 

[Bloo]

the med im using for ich is interpet no 6 anti white spot. there are 2 bio pads at the bottom of the filtration system and only 1 needs to get ceaned every 3-6 months. the coarse blue sponge is cleaned or replaced every 6-12 weeks. the green filter is changed every 6 weeks.
thanks to Monkeyman, Tolak and Bloozoo 2, hope this answers most of your reply questions
thanks again

That's a good medication. I've had success with it before - even using full strength with other loaches.
I've also had Juwel tanks for many years and the vast majority of us ignore the Juwel recommendation to line their pockets with more dosh - and do what is ultimately best for the tank

There is really no need to use the Nitrate sponge in any established tank. This is a relatively new sponge and to me is just designed to give people more excuses not to do regular water changes (which reduces nitrates) and to line Juwel's pockets.
Regular water changes is the one major key to a healthy tank.

With the Juwel Internal, you really need to clean your sponges more often to establish and maintain a healthy routine. Rinse and gently squeeze them in some siphoned tank water on a weekly (or every two weeks at most).
Replace only when they fall apart.

Hope that helps

 

[hawkeye121]

i thought that juwel filters were expensive to change and frequent as well, i'll give that a try on the blue sponges. thanks

the med im using for ich is interpet no 6 anti white spot. there are 2 bio pads at the bottom of the filtration system and only 1 needs to get ceaned every 3-6 months. the coarse blue sponge is cleaned or replaced every 6-12 weeks. the green filter is changed every 6 weeks.
thanks to Monkeyman, Tolak and Bloozoo 2, hope this answers most of your reply questions
thanks again

That's a good medication. I've had success with it before - even using full strength with other loaches.
I've also had Juwel tanks for many years and the vast majority of us ignore the Juwel recommendation to line their pockets with more dosh - and do what is ultimately best for the tank

There is really no need to use the Nitrate sponge in any established tank. This is a relatively new sponge and to me is just designed to give people more excuses not to do regular water changes (which reduces nitrates) and to line Juwel's pockets.
Regular water changes is the one major key to a healthy tank.

With the Juwel Internal, you really need to clean your sponges more often to establish and maintain a healthy routine. Rinse and gently squeeze them in some siphoned tank water on a weekly (or every two weeks at most).
Replace only when they fall apart.

Hope that helps

i suspected that it was to make money for juwel, but having had the tank for only 4 months i just did what they said, have just added the diffuser tonight to provide some aeration and the 2nd dose of white spot , will also do a water change in 7 days
thanks

 

[monkeyman]

Yes. In total agreement with diademhill, just use 2 fine & 2 course BLUE filters (instead of 3 blue & 1 green). If you have a look at your nitrate removal sponge you will see a small slit in the side of it & if you poke your finger in it you will find a small pellet. I take it this is the nitrate removal bit (hence, not the actual sponge). Anyway, i think its a load of rubbish. I clean my 4 blue filters (using tank water) everytime they get REALLY dirty (about once every 3 months). However, i do replace the black carbon filter around every 3 months (£12 a year, so not a big fortune). But i really wouldnt bother CHANGING your blue filters unless they are 1/2 disintigrated. Even then, just replace 1 at a time.
I replace my white filter once a week at every water change. Hope this helps with your filter.

Im guessing that all that changing of filters might be a factor in your fish sickness problems? Although as we both know that Clowns are very prone to White spot. I recently moved 3 (3") that i had to my dads tank & they broke out with it, also infecting 2 pink kissers. The tank has however successfully (im glad to say) been treated, with the carbon filter due to be returned to the tank tomorrow. Like i said, ditch that green sponge!

 

[hawkeye121]

Yes. In total agreement with diademhill, just use 2 fine & 2 course BLUE filters (instead of 3 blue & 1 green). If you have a look at your nitrate removal sponge you will see a small slit in the side of it & if you poke your finger in it you will find a small pellet. I take it this is the nitrate removal bit (hence, not the actual sponge). Anyway, i think its a load of rubbish. I clean my 4 blue filters (using tank water) everytime they get REALLY dirty (about once every 3 months). However, i do replace the black carbon filter around every 3 months (£12 a year, so not a big fortune). But i really wouldnt bother CHANGING your blue filters unless they are 1/2 disintigrated. Even then, just replace 1 at a time.
I replace my white filter once a week at every water change. Hope this helps with your filter.

Im guessing that all that changing of filters might be a factor in your fish sickness problems? Although as we both know that Clowns are very prone to White spot. I recently moved 3 (3") that i had to my dads tank & they broke out with it, also infecting 2 pink kissers. The tank has however successfully (im glad to say) been treated, with the carbon filter due to be returned to the tank tomorrow. Like i said, ditch that green sponge!

how much water do you change weekly, can i do a partial water change during treatment of white spot if i add a small ammount of treatment to water. i need to get a small hospital tank in the future. the large clown seemed to perk up a bit after adding the air diffuser but seems to be getting a whitish coating on the eyes., maybe because the water isnt right yet. i'll have a look in the green sponge, didnt know anything was in it.

 

[monkeyman]

I think if you changed 20 litres once a week, doing a gravel vac at the same time you will be fine (this is aroung a 10% change). Get a large bucket and mark it at 20 litres. This is a good way of knowing how much to take out. Not sure if im insulting your intelligence here but ill just tell you anyway. DO NOT change your water while is is under treatment. Let the treatment run its full course! Remember to change your white filter every water change & get shot of that green one! Hope this helps?

 

[hawkeye121]

I think if you changed 20 litres once a week, doing a gravel vac at the same time you will be fine (this is aroung a 10% change). Get a large bucket and mark it at 20 litres. This is a good way of knowing how much to take out. Not sure if im insulting your intelligence here but ill just tell you anyway. DO NOT change your water while is is under treatment. Let the treatment run its full course! Remember to change your white filter every water change & get shot of that green one! Hope this helps?

thanks for your reply
latest is. 2nd treatment for ich went in monday. today is friday. 1st treatment went in last friday.
some fish are still flashing, particularly an angel. large clown still has white covering both eyes and still not eating. question is has the treatment worked and if it hasnt , should i do a water change and retreat, with something for the clown loaches eyes and ich ? B)