Water chemistry confusion - fish suffering. Please HELP!?

[Carmen75]

Pop & Set Up:
1 Molly; 2 platies; 2 angelfish (one is dying); 2 goldfish (90 year-old dad brought these home, they had been doing fine in the tank for the last two months); 1 pleco (died 2 days ago)

75-gallon tank; fluval 407 canister filter; fluval e300 heater; a 200 watt supplemental heater; 1 small air pump bubble maker thingy

A week and a half ago, I noticed one of my angels had damaged fins. On the advice of the petco folks, I used artemis microbe lift, removing the carbon media from my filter. I dosed according to the bottle for 6 days since I saw improvement. On day 7, I woke up to a dead pleco. I decided I needed to put the carbon back in the filter. Since I was messing with the filter anyway, I figured I’d do a quick clean. I rinsed all the sponges and other media in the tank water that I’d gotten from inside the filter. I rinsed the carbon bags in the tank water and put them back in. I also vacuumed the substrate and did a 30% water change. I used aqua safe according to the directions on the bottle. Next morning (today) one of my angel’s was nose down and barely alive. Other fish in the tank are flashing, swimming weirdly and being unusually aggressive and intermittently laying on the bottom and not moving much. I also noticed one of the goldfish has a white wound/ weird puffy spot under his eye (not sure if it’s fungus or an injury — it wasn’t there this morning). I tested the water and found nitrates to be slightly up (but in the safe zone) and the ph was 7.4. No chlorine or ammonia; no nitrites. The kh/alkalinity however was quite low. I treated the water with Tetra easy balance (using the weekly dosing formula of 10/ML per 10 gallons). I’ve done so much research but am not sure if I did the right thing with the easy balance. Should I have used an alkalinity buffer? Or should I try the crushed coral option? Did I do something wrong ending the Artemis treatment and putting the carbon bags back right away? Did my carbon go bad in the 6 days outside the tank? That angel is still hanging on; I hate to see it suffering and the others so stressed. I’m thinking I have a ph stability issue. Can anyone help?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

That sounds awful, I'm sorry you're going through this!

@Essjay is brilliant with this sort of thing, but it's past 2am here in the UK so she won't be here for a while. Can you test your tapwater and see what the pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrate levels are in the tap water?

How often do you usually do water changes, and what sort of percentage do you usually change?

I don't like or trust the products you're using. I can't find what ingredients are in them, which is a big red flag, and the artemis microbe lift claims to be herbal and "boost the immune system", but doesn't say how exactly it's meant to do that, or what herbs you're adding for the fish to live in and breath... the Tetra Easy Balance claims to mess with KH and pH and somehow remove nitrates so you can do less water changes? Waste of money products that are likely doing more harm than good. Stop throwing chemicals in there. Use a water conditioner to deal with chlorine and chloromines in the tapwater you're adding to the tank, but stop adding the other snake oil products, and water change them out.

The carbon wouldn't have gone bad, exactly, but how long has that carbon been in the filter? Because after a month or so, it's usually "full" and can't absorb/adsorb any more, so it's no longer useful and must be refreshed or replaced.
Hoping that someone in the US timezone can help since it's an emergency - isolate the dying angelfish if you can - if a fish dies in the tank, the other fish will eat the body, and if there's disease going on, we don't want that to happen.

I would do a large water change - like, 75%, to remove as much of the medication as possible, since it might be making it worse, and if the carbon is old and not removing the med, a large water change would do that. The other fish flicking and acting stressed and aggressive also suggests something in the water is irritating them, and I'd suspect it's the mix of random products that have been added. Water changing it out should be done as soon as possible.

It's also an unsuitable mix of fish I'm afraid - but the illness/stress/disease symptoms are more urgent. Once that's under control, you'll need to research the fish you have, and sort out the stocking. Angels and goldfish don't go together - goldies are cold water fish, produce a heck of a lot of waste which affects your water quality and parameters, and don't belong in a tank with tropical fish like angels, which are also picky about their tank mates and can injure or even kill other fish. Angels also need soft water, while your livebearers need hard.

If you can get some photos of the fish that are affected, like the ones on the floor and the goldfish's injury, that would be helpful. But the water change first! This sounds like an emergency large water change is essential, between the losses and the signs from the remaining fish.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Forgot to mention, but it's important - needs to be a large water change to dilute out the various products, just remember to use a water conditioner for chlorine/chlormines, and to temperature match the new water to the tank temperature before adding it to the tank.

 

[Carmen75]

Thanks so much. I’m so sad and feel TERRIBLE about this. I suppose it’s too late to do a big water change this minute. But I will do it as soon as I’m up at 6 am. I’m a little scared because I don’t know how to handle the temperature of a 75% water change. How can I warm the water first? I know that the goldfish don’t belong and I’m pretty sure the others don’t go well together either. But I don’t know what to do to sort it out at this point. I’ve been crying most of the day. This tank used to be a tank of African cichlids. There were 9 living together and doing well and growing for three years. Then my parents moved to Virginia while I was away working on my PhD. They all made it. But my folks were worried about leaving them in the travel container another night. So they hurried and set the tank up. But in doing so, they forgot to put the heater in and get the water warm enough first. So, in the morning they were all gone. My parents are elderly and they felt awful. Dad buried the fish under a red maple tree in the back yard. So we stabilized the tank and Dad said he wanted to try to keep more peaceful fish and it’s been an awful mess since. I feel like i should try to see if the pet store can adopt them out and we should just give up on this. I feel like we were lucky with our cichlids before and now we just don’t know how to handle the complexity of all this. I’m just so sorry. And sorry to this whole community if it seems we were thoughtless and cavalier. I’m so so so sad and I know my folks are too. Hoping for forgiveness.

 

[Dexter Leopard Frog]

No need to hope for forgiveness. You have reached out and asked for help, that is a good thing. Hopefully some of the guys and gals here can steer you in the right direction and something can be saved and you will in turn enjoy the hobby too Or they can steer you in a direction to rebuild so that you and Dad can enjoy a future build.

 

[Carmen75]

Many thanks for your grace and kindness! Truly.

 

[TNG]

Thanks so much. I’m so sad and feel TERRIBLE about this. I suppose it’s too late to do a big water change this minute. But I will do it as soon as I’m up at 6 am. I’m a little scared because I don’t know how to handle the temperature of a 75% water change. How can I warm the water first?

In relation to water change, if you intend to replace 75%, I suggest the following.
You have a 300W heater plus a 200W. Rather than filing the tank up (75G x 75% = 56 Gallons?), I'd first replace it with 20 gallons, turn both heaters on, add another 20G around 2 hours later, and the remaining of the water another 2 hours later.
If you couldn't be home after replacing the first 20 gallons, you could add the next lot and the next one whenever you return.

 

[Alice B]

I would separate the goldfish out during the water change. My kids picked out fantails in 1985 and the store didn't tell me not to put with tropicals. Everything died. Goldfish can live in a bucket with an airstone temporarily if need be

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I’m a little scared because I don’t know how to handle the temperature of a 75% water change. How can I warm the water first?

Do you have a thermometer in the tank? Like just a cheapy, floating thermometer to show the temperature of the water, since heaters aren't always calibrated exactly. If you haven't, don't panic. But if you have, I simply fill a 15 litre bucket with water, dose with the amount of water conditioner needed for 15L, and add some boiling water slowly to the bucket, to bring it what feels close to the tank temperature if I place my hand in it. I float one of those thermometers in the bucket to make sure the water is very close to the temperature of the tank water. If it's too cool or too hot, like more than three degrees difference, then I can add more hot water or more cold water until its close enough.
Fish are not mammals, so they take their body temperature from the water they're in. A big swing in temperature, like adding 75% water that's much colder or much hotter than the tank temp can put them into shock and prove fatal, if the difference is drastic enough. But if you're gradually adding water that's only a couple of degrees off, they should be fine! Pour it in smoothly and calmly. I place a plastic plate on the surface and use a jug to pour the new water in, so it doesn't just dump it in and disturb all the sand, plants and fish. Slightly cooler is better than too hot, since many fish are used to a slight drop in temp when rainy seasons hit, but aim for the same temp as the tank.
If you don't have a couple of these cheapy thermometers:

Then get a couple when you can, they're very useful, and only a couple of dollars in a fish store or on Amazon
But for now, if you fill the buckets and add some warm water until it feels close to the tank temp, like put one hand in the tank, one in the bucket, and judge that way, that will usually be fine! As someone else suggested, you can also refill gradually if you're concerned. Ideally, I'd want the tank refilled and a large water change done fairly quickly, since the fish are showing these symptoms and need whatever is in the water to be diluted out. But if you're using a water conditioner in the right amount and matching the temp pretty closely to the tank temp, which you can feel with your hands, then it should be fine to fill it straight away, and sooner is better. I regularly do 60-75% water changes, the fish seem to really enjoy it, and often spawn soon after a water change!

I know that the goldfish don’t belong and I’m pretty sure the others don’t go well together either. But I don’t know what to do to sort it out at this point.

It can be sorted. I completely understand why you're so upset! But you're trying, you're here asking for help, you're willing to help them, and we're not judging you harshly, I promise! If anyone does, then they're not worth your time. We've all made mistakes in stocking and care, and I'd bet money that there isn't a fish keeper alive who hasn't accidentally killed a fish through our own mistakes. I know I have, and I felt so terrible about it. Almost quit the hobby, too. But you're not alone, this hobby has a really steep learning curve, and there's a lot of misinformation and bad advice even from fish stores, who you should be able to trust. Sadly, you can't trust them, since a lot really don't know what they're doing, and just want to sell you a product so you'll boost profits and leave them be. Not your fault for trusting their advice, and no one is blaming you for that! Only thing to do is to resolve to learn from the mistake, and move forward, learning as you go. Forgive yourself, the way you'd forgive someone else for making a mistake.

I’ve been crying most of the day. This tank used to be a tank of African cichlids. There were 9 living together and doing well and growing for three years. Then my parents moved to Virginia while I was away working on my PhD. They all made it. But my folks were worried about leaving them in the travel container another night. So they hurried and set the tank up. But in doing so, they forgot to put the heater in and get the water warm enough first. So, in the morning they were all gone. My parents are elderly and they felt awful. Dad buried the fish under a red maple tree in the back yard. So we stabilized the tank and Dad said he wanted to try to keep more peaceful fish and it’s been an awful mess since. I feel like i should try to see if the pet store can adopt them out and we should just give up on this. I feel like we were lucky with our cichlids before and now we just don’t know how to handle the complexity of all this. I’m just so sorry. And sorry to this whole community if it seems we were thoughtless and cavalier. I’m so so so sad and I know my folks are too. Hoping for forgiveness.

You need to forgive yourself, as do your parents! They did their best, and didn't mean for it to happen. Oh man, I could tell you stories, or link you to old threads of mine here. I've been through more than one tank crash when I began helping care for my own father's tank, as he was in his 80s and struggling. It's how I got into fishkeeping. He's 85 now, and gave me the tank... thanks, dad! It was overstocked with fish that shouldn't live together, he's an old school fishkeeper who didn't like my new school fishkeeping ways, like large water changes. He unplugged the filter once to rest the motor, the overstocked tank crashed, and many fish died before I discovered and fixed the issue. He felt awful, and I did too for not spotting the problem earlier.

So I've been there, and we've come out the other side! Still have a few hardy, elderly survivors from that old tank, that outlived their schooling mates and survived the tank crash, enjoying their retirement, hopefully. Happy to share old threads and similar stories I've been through when helping my elderly father get to enjoy his tank again, while I did the heavy lifting, and we can help advise you on restocking the tank so it can be a calm, peaceful community tank for him and you to enjoy! You don't seem thoughtless or cavalier, I assure you. It's clear that you care a lot.

Just have to ride out this emergency situation first, you can do it! First step, large water change. Then water tests as suggested earlier in the thread, of the tap water and tank water, and photos of the fish and tank please - not to judge you! To check if it seems like some fin rot, some aggression problems, or a disease might have come in with the new fish. And to check the fuzziness under the goldfish's eye.

Once we're seen the fish and the set-up, can suggest things that might help stabilise the tank, and potential for re-stocking. Is your dad particularly attached to the goldies? Or the angels etc? Or just wants a standard, calm community? Can also suggest a shopping list for how to isolate a sickly/dying fish if you don't have a QT tank, like a breeder box that attaches inside the main tank, so the others can't bully or eat the body of the ailing fish. thermometers, maybe some live plants to help with water quality, ec.

This is a rough patch, but we've all had those in this hobby, and we're happy to help you through it, and to advise how to set it up for success!

 

[Carmen75]

Many thanks to all who have responded. I'm grateful for your encouragement and kindness.

@AdoraBelle Dearheart , thanks for all the detailed guidance. I'm going to give it a whirl. I'm going to change the water and use your suggestions for controlling temp. I'm wondering if I should replace the old carbon while I'm at it, or is this too much change all at once?

Thanks again to @Alice B @TNG and @AdoraBelle Dearheart! I appreciate your time and guidance more than I can say. Will post pics soon!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'm going to change the water and use your suggestions for controlling temp. I'm wondering if I should replace the old carbon while I'm at it, or is this too much change all at once?

You can change the carbon, shouldn't it be a problem!

 

[Carmen75]

UPDATE w/ PICS (apologies in advance for the overkill; trying desperately to save what I can and need all the help/guidance I can get! Thanks for reading!!

First the bad news: when I woke this morning, I had two dead goldies and one dead angel (the one that was dying yesterday). But the other fish (1 molly, 2 platies, 1 angel) still seemed distressed. They were still flicking on things and or hovering at the bottom.

Now the neutral news: I completed the 75% water change. Managed to keep the temp stable and used a de-chlorinator/conditioner, treating one bucket at a time and then adding to the tank. I'm on a work break so I'm going to do some water testing. But remaining fish still don't seem well (I don't imagine they'd bounce right back, but I'm not sure how long it should take or what it should look like.

I'm adding some pics for you guys to have a look at the situation. Currently I'm down to 4 fish in the tank - 1 molly; 2 platies, 1 angel. Sometimes molly and the two platies are parked on the substrate; sometimes they're hovering at the top. The angel has been hovering at the top in the same corner since about 10 AM. Still very worried, but think I've done just about all I can do. Still worried and scared.

The tank pic above is from about two weeks ago. Since then one fake green plant was added (back left corner); pet store guy said I should put lots of decorations in so the angels wouldn't be able to see other fish so easily.

Angel hovering in the corner...

Molly in hiding... took this pic about an hour ago. Just looked to do water test and now can't find her anywhere

Platies were laying at the bottom, but they're now at the top. Putting this pic in so you guys can see its tail. It wasn't looking like that before, but I did notice the two platies fighting yesterday (unusually aggressive behavior for them.

This is the second platy which looks to be in slightly better shape. And finally...

Basic water test from just a few minutes ago. Most colors translate in the photo but the last one is hard to see. In real life it looked to be between the 7.2 and the 7.8 boxes. I have a master test kit for freshwater, but it doesn't have a separate kh test, so won't be able to get precise numbers on that. But I'll post numbers for what I can test shortly. Current tank temp is 77.5 (which is what it had been all along.

 

[Carmen75]

Utterly perplexed -- the day before yesterday i vacuumed the substrate and I did a 30% water change. Fish started getting sick. Yesterday when I tested the water there was no ammonia. Today I did a 75% water change and just discovered there is a significant amount of ammonia (50 ppm). What should I do?

 

[Alice B]

Your Angelfish can't handle nitrites, and he's not going to handle ammonia well. The bacteria mainly live on surfaces in the tank. What I would do you may not be able to do. I'd dump in a couple of quarts of FritzZyme 7 or a pint of Fritz Turbo. Those bacteria products I've had good results with but the turbo has to be kept refrigerated which means if it's on amazon its no good. If you have a good small local fish store they might carry these. I can't advise on any of the other products out there because if it works I don't experiment.

 

[TNG]

Utterly perplexed -- the day before yesterday i vacuumed the substrate and I did a 30% water change. Fish started getting sick. Yesterday when I tested the water there was no ammonia. Today I did a 75% water change and just discovered there is a significant amount of ammonia (50 ppm). What should I do?

In this scenario, without seeing the tank in person it'd be difficult to make suggestion.
Did you mean the ammonia is 0.5 ppm or 50 ppm? A slight ammonia isn't deadly if your pH is low, just over or below 7.
If it were me, I'd sit it out and not making drastic change and not feed the fish until everything is back on track ( they won't eat anyway).