Water Changes

[Byron]

So most of you think rather than adding what the fish and plants need, its better to add tap water? Tap water in which you most likely have no chemical breakdown of so have zero idea what is in it?

I mean who has the levels of nitrate, potassium, iron, nitrogen, phosphorous of their tap water at hand? How do you maintain these levels if you don't know what you are adding or taking away?

I do very little water changes in my reef tanks, rather I dose everything the inhabitants need. I have not added fish in 7 years and only had 1 die and not lost a coral or invert since the tanks been running.

Why is freshwater so different? I am genuinely asking this question as I am curious why water changes are so important in freshwater, whereas in reef keep which is arguably much more 'touchy' than freshwater adding the desired elements works so well.

I have only just gone back to having a freshwater tank so am asking for that reason.

I will leave a link to a video below that seems to follow my thoughts mostly, interesting to hear some opinions

I and others have already answered your question on why water changes are critical for a healthy aquarium, there is no need to keep repeating the obvious. You can read the previous posts.

I will say though that freshwater and marine aquaria are vastly different. The fish are physiologically vastly different with respect to their interaction with the water. Aside from temperature, the water in the oceans is basically the same throughout the world. Freshwater is uniquely different, and freshwater fish species have evolved according to the habitat environment water.

 

[Byron]

This is the internet, full of internet experts. I offer advice that I’ve learned over my time in the hobby. Things that have worked for me personally for years. Some I learned on my own, some from other hobbyists, some from professionals with lots of letters after their names that I’ve been fortunate to work with over the years.

I think it’s important to note there is no one way to do things, none of us have the absolute answer for everyone, and over time I’ve seen people get persuaded by different internet experts claiming to know it all and they start changing things from one philosophy to another, and wind up crashing their tanks.

Once in a while I like to add that if you don’t have a problem you’re trying to correct, take what everyone says with a grain of salt, and apply new knowledge cautiously.

None of us are truly experts. Some can acknowledge that, some can’t. Ymmv



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Unlike your approach, my knowledge comes from the experts who do know, not my personal guessing. That is a big difference.

 

[drewzaun]

Thanks for proving my point so quickly.


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[Byron]

Thanks for proving my point so quickly.


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Not sure the intent here...but it is easy to find the experts, the ichthyologists, biologists and microbiologists who have the knowledge. They rarely differ on the basics, so one can rely on their advice. The fellow in that linked video...what does he know? I've no idea as to his credentials, but I would not not take anything he says over the professional experts who have spent six-plus years studying all this. It is comparable to going to a doctor when you're ill, rather than relying on the opinion of someone on the street. No difference. It is easy to learn when you know the good teachers.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I'm not an expert - I've been learning along the way and 'listening' to experts with controlled studies to back up their conclusions...and I've been in the hobby for 50 years and counting, so that's a fair piece of learning.

Thanks for proving my point so quickly.

Yup, but I think he proved you wrong. I've known Byron for a few years now. His knowledge of tropical fish and plants is undeniably extensive and his several tanks are truly awesome.

Now I think some are convinced that organic waste like urine and pheromones remain in the water. I have seen the quote about fish swimming in urine many times. But this is not the case really. Like my compost pile out by the garden, all organic waste is decomposed and recycled by bacteria into relatively harmless, often useful compounds, many of which are used by plants*. (*Case in point: Many planted tank enthusiasts use Seachem Excel or Metricide. The ingredient is glutaraldehyde , a disinfectant used to sterilize heat sensitive medical and dental equipment. Added to the planted tank, it readily decomposes to provide a carbon source for plants. BUT this is POISON that can kill....and yet it's added every day to many planted tanks with fish apparently without incident...believe it or not. If bacteria can break down a disinfectant, well then,,,)
However, like rain in nature, the partial water change 'freshens' the water and resupplies minerals like calcium, magnesium, etc.

I don't see how we could compare FW aquariums to SW aquariums. In SW aquariums there is live rock, deep sand, refugiums, protein skimmers, bio-reactors, and the like that dramatically make SW aquariums quite different than FW tanks. (I might claim that my weekly use of diatomaceous earth filtration comes close to a protein skimmers function...and I do have MTS and plants that all help to process waste and better purify water.)
However, I still feel the weekly partial water change better ensures maintaining the highest possible water quality. It seems to be working....for many. many years!

 

[cowgirluntamed]

So most of you think rather than adding what the fish and plants need, its better to add tap water? Tap water in which you most likely have no chemical breakdown of so have zero idea what is in it?

I mean who has the levels of nitrate, potassium, iron, nitrogen, phosphorous of their tap water at hand? How do you maintain these levels if you don't know what you are adding or taking away?

I do very little water changes in my reef tanks, rather I dose everything the inhabitants need. I have not added fish in 7 years and only had 1 die and not lost a coral or invert since the tanks been running.

Why is freshwater so different? I am genuinely asking this question as I am curious why water changes are so important in freshwater, whereas in reef keep which is arguably much more 'touchy' than freshwater adding the desired elements works so well.

I have only just gone back to having a freshwater tank so am asking for that reason.

Another thing to mention, is with freshwater you have hard water vs soft water. Hard water fish do very badly in soft water do to being "starved" of minerals. Some soft water fish(if tank raised) can adapt better to harder water, but it still can mess with their internal organs having to get rid of stuff they don't need.

I have no idea if salt water can be this way. I've heard some different salinities, but I've only ever done fresh.

And there are some people that use RO or distilled water, and then add minerals back in. There are also non planted tanks low tech planted tanks, high tech planted tanks, EI dosing with tanks, dirted tanks, and probably quite a few more. Each needs it's own research in how to properly do things.

I will say I have learned a TON from Byron and Mike about freshwater planted tanks (low tech) and so far my 20 gallon is a success with plants growing well and no algae issues! And I love the quotes in Byron's signature.

Not that I can find them now....not sure if it just doesn't show it on my phone or what...but I like the survive vs thrive. I like to keep a saying in my head anymore, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. There are a lot of factors that go into these tanks. And each one is different(as Byron has pointed out in other posts, even with the same tank size, water, plant load, and bioload.) Each is an individual.

 

[drewzaun]

Not sure the intent here...but it is easy to find the experts, the ichthyologists, biologists and microbiologists who have the knowledge.

I’ve had the good fortune as a volunteer diver at one of the larger public aquariums in the US to work alongside people just like this, observe their work, pick their brains and debate ideas.

Prior to that experience I did rank maintenance similar to how you’ve described it in every thread we’ve been in together. 50-75% water change once a week, no testing, and I won’t put words in your mouth about filter maintenance, I’ve not seen you discuss it, and your one reference was vague. I’ve since changed my approach, based on watching the people who do this for a living. Biologists, engineers, people working with restocking programs for critically endangered species etc.

I now do, and advocate for, multiple water changes per week, which exceeds what you claim to do. I test weekly, you claim you don’t test very often at all. I test so that I can see if something is going on that I can’t see with my eyes alone, you claim you know exactly what your water chemistry is without testing. Honestly Byron it’s feels like you’re trolling me. You claim to have learned from experts like ichthyologists, biologists etc...well I guarantee if you said you didn’t bother testing and recording your water parameters regularly they’d scowl their scientific scowls.

My maintenance regimen has never been wait until things get to a certain point before getting off the couch, but more than once that’s what you have attributed my advice to be, even though I’ve stated exactly the opposite.

When I described my personal maintence here, you called it poor husbandry. Most people act surprised when they learn I don’t keep discus, since most people in fw who run as many water changes as I do and go through as many test kits as I do usually have a lot of money tied up in discus. You can call my methods overkill, but not poor or inadequate.

I don’t know what set you off but I’ve rarely posted anything you haven’t mischaracterized and attached as a straw man, but it’s getting to the point I’m ready to just give up the community aspect of the forums and just go back to lurking in the plant threads to learn what I came here for to begin with.

You’ve been borderline rude and insulting on several threads, and not just to me. The op of this thread for example comes from a different background, has gotten conflicting advice, asked for reasoning so he can make an informed opinion, and you’ve gone at him as well.

People who act like the sole authority on a subject and used that belief to put down others they who disagree, or who they think disagree, are imo what has caused most internet message boards to go dark.

You seem to be pretty popular here. Either we put this behind us, and you address what I actually say as opposed to something else, or I’ll be on my way. I was happy to find an active forum, it’s a bit nostalgic, but I’d rather not be attacked every post for things I’m not even saying...


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[drewzaun]

I'm not an expert - I've been learning along the way and 'listening' to experts with controlled studies to back up their conclusions...and I've been in the hobby for 50 years and counting, so that's a fair piece of learning.

Me too, but for a bit less time.

Now I think some are convinced that organic waste like urine and pheromones remain in the water. I have seen the quote about fish swimming in urine many times. But this is not the case really. Like my compost pile out by the garden, all organic waste is decomposed and recycled by bacteria into relatively harmless, often useful compounds, many of which are used by plants*. (*Case in point: Many planted tank enthusiasts use Seachem Excel or Metricide. The ingredient is glutaraldehyde , a disinfectant used to sterilize heat sensitive medical and dental equipment. Added to the planted tank, it readily decomposes to provide a carbon source for plants. BUT this is POISON that can kill....and yet it's added every day to many planted tanks with fish apparently without incident...believe it or not. If bacteria can break down a disinfectant, well then,,,)
However, like rain in nature, the partial water change 'freshens' the water and resupplies minerals like calcium, magnesium, etc.

I’m not one of those. For excel use, I’ve never noticed a benefit to my tanks so I’ve stopped dosing it. For the rest, I do believe many organic compounds do break down, but they need to be removed. I do and have advocated for frequent water changes since I’ve been here. Also for regular testing of parameters. For some reason Byron thinks I’m against them, but not once have I ever said as much. I do more water changes than he does in fact, have posted as such.

I don't see how we could compare FW aquariums to SW aquariums. In SW aquariums there is live rock, deep sand, refugiums, protein skimmers, bio-reactors, and the like that dramatically make SW aquariums quite different than FW tanks. (I might claim that my weekly use of diatomaceous earth filtration comes close to a protein skimmers function...and I do have MTS and plants that all help to process waste and better purify water.)
However, I still feel the weekly partial water change better ensures maintaining the highest possible water quality. It seems to be working....for many. many years!

I don’t compare them either, though I admire a lot of what the community has come up with. Sumps, the technology, I am always looking to learn as much as I can. I would have reef tank but it’s a bit too much of an investment and things like an ro/di system aren’t feasible for me atm...I keep what best matches my tap water because that allows me to keep the best conditions with a limited time, space and financial investment. Please don’t read that as I’m not being responsible, on the contrary, I’ve soft water and keep SA and CA fish, which thrive in those conditions.

Personally I think SW aquariums would benefit from more water changes than the majority of hobbyists do, but they’re more expensive than fw changes. The aquarium I volunteered at changed a lot of water, but they’ve the resources to do so. The local traveling maintence guys also change a lot of water, but again, they’re being paid to. Most people rely on protein skimmers, refugiums and such, at least from what I’ve seen. But if it works...




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[Byron]

Mike,

Now I think some are convinced that organic waste like urine and pheromones remain in the water. I have seen the quote about fish swimming in urine many times. But this is not the case really. Like my compost pile out by the garden, all organic waste is decomposed and recycled by bacteria into relatively harmless, often useful compounds, many of which are used by plants*.

That was not what I intended to convey, about the urine. Freshwater fish do not drink because They continually take in water via osmosis. Their kidneys remove this and that from the water, and it is then voided as "stale water" for lack of a better term. This urine then builds up. Only a water change can remove it, and replace it with fresh water containing minerals or whatever. One of your benefits of water changes, so I think we agree on that point. The "urine" is just old stale water that accumulates. I can't see bacteria somehow improving this water.

As for the solid waste, it gets broken down, but it is not rapidly removed in that form. Plants and bacteria may eventually achieve this, but I would suspect not very well in most of our tanks which have more fish than what these processes can handle. I recall someone a couple years back in an article mentioning that six tetras (black neons were the species mentioned) in a 55g tank heavy with plants could manage without water changes because nature would be able to handle the biology. Most of us have more fish than that per volume, so back to the water changes.

(*Case in point: Many planted tank enthusiasts use Seachem Excel or Metricide. The ingredient is glutaraldehyde , a disinfectant used to sterilize heat sensitive medical and dental equipment. Added to the planted tank, it readily decomposes to provide a carbon source for plants. BUT this is POISON that can kill....and yet it's added every day to many planted tanks with fish apparently without incident...believe it or not. If bacteria can break down a disinfectant, well then,,,)

I would be skeptical of bacteria breaking down disinfectant. The danger here is that any substance added to the tank water gets inside the fish, and the ramifications are significant in weakening the fish if nothing else.

 

[Byron]

I’ve had the good fortune as a volunteer diver at one of the larger public aquariums in the US to work alongside people just like this, observe their work, pick their brains and debate ideas.

Prior to that experience I did rank maintenance similar to how you’ve described it in every thread we’ve been in together. 50-75% water change once a week, no testing, and I won’t put words in your mouth about filter maintenance, I’ve not seen you discuss it, and your one reference was vague. I’ve since changed my approach, based on watching the people who do this for a living. Biologists, engineers, people working with restocking programs for critically endangered species etc.

I now do, and advocate for, multiple water changes per week, which exceeds what you claim to do. I test weekly, you claim you don’t test very often at all. I test so that I can see if something is going on that I can’t see with my eyes alone, you claim you know exactly what your water chemistry is without testing. Honestly Byron it’s feels like you’re trolling me. You claim to have learned from experts like ichthyologists, biologists etc...well I guarantee if you said you didn’t bother testing and recording your water parameters regularly they’d scowl their scientific scowls.

My maintenance regimen has never been wait until things get to a certain point before getting off the couch, but more than once that’s what you have attributed my advice to be, even though I’ve stated exactly the opposite.

When I described my personal maintence here, you called it poor husbandry. Most people act surprised when they learn I don’t keep discus, since most people in fw who run as many water changes as I do and go through as many test kits as I do usually have a lot of money tied up in discus. You can call my methods overkill, but not poor or inadequate.

I don’t know what set you off but I’ve rarely posted anything you haven’t mischaracterized and attached as a straw man, but it’s getting to the point I’m ready to just give up the community aspect of the forums and just go back to lurking in the plant threads to learn what I came here for to begin with.

You’ve been borderline rude and insulting on several threads, and not just to me. The op of this thread for example comes from a different background, has gotten conflicting advice, asked for reasoning so he can make an informed opinion, and you’ve gone at him as well.

People who act like the sole authority on a subject and used that belief to put down others they who disagree, or who they think disagree, are imo what has caused most internet message boards to go dark.

You seem to be pretty popular here. Either we put this behind us, and you address what I actually say as opposed to something else, or I’ll be on my way. I was happy to find an active forum, it’s a bit nostalgic, but I’d rather not be attacked every post for things I’m not even saying...


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We will agree to disagree as to content. You have made statements here that are inaccurate, and some that counter your initial posts, but it is obviously not worth correcting, so I won't bother.

 

[drewzaun]

We will agree to disagree as to content. You have made statements here that are inaccurate, and some that counter your initial posts, but it is obviously not worth correcting, so I won't bother.

I’ve made some statements that are sides in a debate. As to the varsity of those states, it’s your opinion.

If I’ve contradicted myself here it was quite by accident, but I seriously doubt that I have. Go ahead and quote me if you will, other wise it’s a safe bet you misread, misunderstood, or mischaracterized my words.

Put up or shut up


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[Byron]

I’ve made some statements that are sides in a debate. As to the varsity of those states, it’s your opinion.

If I’ve contradicted myself here it was quite by accident, but I seriously doubt that I have. Go ahead and quote me if you will, other wise it’s a safe bet you misread, misunderstood, or mischaracterized my words.

Put up or shut up


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Very helpful. I pointed out your initial inaccuracies and have no intention of repeating the obvious just so you can continue your insults. Have a nice day.

 

[drewzaun]

Very helpful. I pointed out your initial inaccuracies and have no intention of repeating the obvious just so you can continue your insults. Have a nice day.

You misread my initial post, I politely clarified it as it was worded a little vague, but you’ve persisted and gotten insulting. Once again I’ve asked you to quote where I’ve said anything you’re attributing to me, and once again you’ve failed to do so.

But message received, I’m not gonna bother to defend what I never said anymore since you clearly have trouble reading what I write. Keep insulting new members and assert your way is the only correct way, that’s why so many forums are dead now...


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[NickAu]

Strange thing, well over 90% of people who have problems with fish on this site can be traced back to poor water conditions, Especially in the Betta section.

Fin rot for example is the direct result of dirty water and I often see people buy this nonsense product or that nonsense product to treat fin rot when all you need is lots of clean warm treated water.

Never be afraid of doing a water change.

 

[AbbeysDad]

@Byron - Regarding fish swimming in urine, I realize you come at this with a somewhat different angle. But I see the statement regurgitated across the web whenever the subject of water changes comes up....and I feel it's become another myth of the hobby.
All organic waste decomposes in the established fish tank just like it does in nature. We can't really debate the extent and degree of decomposition/recycling and its effect on water purity because we simply don't have the means to test it even if we were so inclined.

Clearly gluteraldehyde somehow breaks down in the aquarium. There are folks that have added Excel daily for years and fish still live in there! We could say that initially it's diluted and causes no harm...but day after day after day, more and more is added - where does it go? Something causes it to break down so I suggested decomposition.
I agree that glute is not necessary and is a poison that should be avoided. However, I confess to using Excel to fight a nasty battle with BBA.

I feel that the bottom line in this thread is that at least for FW, periodic partial water changes are the easiest, best way to maintain stable, high quality water (chemistry) for the aquarium.