Water Change

[jmain]

I have a 75 gallon tank and I let the water cycle for a week before I put fish in there. The day before I put the fish in the tank I tested and Ammonia Nitrite and Nitrate were all 0 so I figured it would be safe to put them in there. I got 3 tetra serpa, 3 red eye tetra, 3 black skirt tetra, a cory cat, and a pleco. I put the fish in the tank on Friday then Monday I noticed that the Ammonia had gone up to .25 I heard that ammonia will spike when you put fish in so I went ahead and did a 25% water change before it spiked up to much. I changed out 15 gallons of tap water (probably my mistake) but after that I turned on the filters and tested 1 min after (so the water would mix some.) Now my ammonia is testing .50 and the tank is cloudy. Did I change the water to early and what should I do if anything or should I just wait?


Thanks

 

[cowboy507]

looks like when you bought the tank and added fish your fish store didnt tell you that you had to cycle the tank.
cycling means promoting the good bacteria growth that will eliminate the ammonia and nitrites, both harmful, from your tank.
Your ammonia readings are not too bad yet, but there are some things you can do.
Have a look at the links on my signature, you are currently in a fish-in cycle, so have a look at that first.

but to address the problem at hand:
if you can take the fish back to the store, read about fishless cycling and proceed with that but if not...
first i would do a larger water change, just about daily 50% water changes will be needed if you decide to stay in a fish-in cycle.
continue to take daily readings, do not let it get over .25ppm of ammonia or nitrite.

the cloudyness is from the bacterial bloom, this is normal in a new tank it will go away on its own.
also make sure to add dechlorinator to any new water added to the tank, if you dont the chlorine will kill all your good bacs!
any other questions, just ask.

 

[jmain]

looks like when you bought the tank and added fish your fish store didnt tell you that you had to cycle the tank.
cycling means promoting the good bacteria growth that will eliminate the ammonia and nitrites, both harmful, from your tank.
Your ammonia readings are not too bad yet, but there are some things you can do.
Have a look at the links on my signature, you are currently in a fish-in cycle, so have a look at that first.

but to address the problem at hand:
if you can take the fish back to the store, read about fishless cycling and proceed with that but if not...
first i would do a larger water change, just about daily 50% water changes will be needed if you decide to stay in a fish-in cycle.
continue to take daily readings, do not let it get over .25ppm of ammonia or nitrite.

the cloudyness is from the bacterial bloom, this is normal in a new tank it will go away on its own.
also make sure to add dechlorinator to any new water added to the tank, if you dont the chlorine will kill all your good bacs!
any other questions, just ask.

Well my problem was when I did the 25% change the tap water I have has ammonia in it that I didn't know about so now it went up and its kinda inbetween .25 and .50.... I'm adding the ammonia removale tablets today to see how that will help.

 

[jmain]

looks like when you bought the tank and added fish your fish store didnt tell you that you had to cycle the tank.
cycling means promoting the good bacteria growth that will eliminate the ammonia and nitrites, both harmful, from your tank.
Your ammonia readings are not too bad yet, but there are some things you can do.
Have a look at the links on my signature, you are currently in a fish-in cycle, so have a look at that first.

but to address the problem at hand:
if you can take the fish back to the store, read about fishless cycling and proceed with that but if not...
first i would do a larger water change, just about daily 50% water changes will be needed if you decide to stay in a fish-in cycle.
continue to take daily readings, do not let it get over .25ppm of ammonia or nitrite.

the cloudyness is from the bacterial bloom, this is normal in a new tank it will go away on its own.
also make sure to add dechlorinator to any new water added to the tank, if you dont the chlorine will kill all your good bacs!
any other questions, just ask.

Well my problem was when I did the 25% change the tap water I have has ammonia in it that I didn't know about so now it went up and its kinda inbetween .25 and .50.... I'm adding the ammonia removale tablets today to see how that will help.

Can I add these with the fish in my tank? Jungle Labs Tank Buddies Ammonia Clear 8 Tablets

 

[waterdrop]

It worries me that this looks possibly like an impossible situation! The number and type of fish put in is way too large for a fish-in cycling situation that's "do-able" I'm afraid. The tank is very large (75 US gallons) and the tap water has ammonia in it, requiring that water changes be still more frequent and smaller, this just doesn't seem like it will be sustainable. That fish load would need probably significant daily water changes for a solid month while the necessary two species of bacteria grew to large enough sizes and yet large changes would keep pushing extra ammonia in, requiring you to be there around the clock doing small water changes. Unless you can somehow afford someone to tend it full time, I really see this as a case where the fish truely need to be re-homed. sheesh, one of the first I've ever seen it quite like this!

~~waterdrop~~ (maybe someone else will see it differently?)

 

[drobbyb]

I'd have to agree with waterdrop. It would be best to rehome until a proper fishless cycle can be done.

 

[jmain]

I'd have to agree with waterdrop. It would be best to rehome until a proper fishless cycle can be done.

Even with all the filtiritation I have on the tank it wont help? I have an emporor 400 and 4 powerheads on my undergravel filter shouldn't that help out some?


I also have about 7 gallons of water that I'm aging and going to test in a few days to see if the ammonia has gotten out the water and then I figured I would put that in

 

[vinylman]

I'd have to agree with waterdrop. It would be best to rehome until a proper fishless cycle can be done.

Even with all the filtiritation I have on the tank it wont help? I have an emporor 400 and 4 powerheads on my undergravel filter shouldn't that help out some?


I also have about 7 gallons of water that I'm aging and going to test in a few days to see if the ammonia has gotten out the water and then I figured I would put that in

No, I'm afraid you're coming at this from the wrong angle. It doesn't matter how much filtration you have in the tank, because the filter media needs to be populated by bacteria to get rid of the ammonia. The only way to do this is to perform a fishless cycle. With fish in there without an cycled filter (and that's what we really mean by 'cycling a tank') they're simply producing ammonia every time they exhale and dump/pee. As there's no good bacteria in the filter, they're slowly being poisoned by the ammonia. Once a fish has been exposed to ammonia, their gills are permanently damaged, which will almost certainly shorten their lifespan. If possible, take the fish back to the shop and carry out a fishless cycle. If they won't take them back, see if the shop will let you have some mature filter media which you can then use to 'jump-start' the colony in yours. If you can't get any mature media, then I'm afraid you're looking at large, regular water changes. Please read the pinned topics to get a more detailed idea of what's happening in your tank - there's LOTS of useful info there.

 

[jmain]

I'd have to agree with waterdrop. It would be best to rehome until a proper fishless cycle can be done.

Even with all the filtiritation I have on the tank it wont help? I have an emporor 400 and 4 powerheads on my undergravel filter shouldn't that help out some?


I also have about 7 gallons of water that I'm aging and going to test in a few days to see if the ammonia has gotten out the water and then I figured I would put that in

No, I'm afraid you're coming at this from the wrong angle. It doesn't matter how much filtration you have in the tank, because the filter media needs to be populated by bacteria to get rid of the ammonia. The only way to do this is to perform a fishless cycle. With fish in there without an cycled filter (and that's what we really mean by 'cycling a tank') they're simply producing ammonia every time they exhale and dump/pee. As there's no good bacteria in the filter, they're slowly being poisoned by the ammonia. Once a fish has been exposed to ammonia, their gills are permanently damaged, which will almost certainly shorten their lifespan. If possible, take the fish back to the shop and carry out a fishless cycle. If they won't take them back, see if the shop will let you have some mature filter media which you can then use to 'jump-start' the colony in yours. If you can't get any mature media, then I'm afraid you're looking at large, regular water changes. Please read the pinned topics to get a more detailed idea of what's happening in your tank - there's LOTS of useful info there.

I'll talk to the store about bringing back the fish or getting some mature filter media. If they do take back the fish how long do I need to wait till I get fish again (till everything test 0.) Also if I do big water changes wont it get rid of the bacteria in the bottle that you can get (which I put in hours before the fish)

 

[drobbyb]

Sorry but the bacteria in the bottle is just a way for retailers to seperate you from your money. Think about it...bacteria need food and oxygen to live. How can the bacteria survive without a source of food and a source of oxygen.

The bacteria don't live in the water...they live in the filter and on the surfaces of everything in the tank.

 

[waterdrop]

The truth is, you're very lucky to have stumbled across a true tropical fish hobbyist site to be now learning this information. The vast majority of new hobbyists just never quite know what went wrong after they take the typical LFS advice that's more or less fixed in stone as a business thing.

What they don't tell you (this business practice has been going on so long its almost not their fault and really not worth messing up your relationship with them over, as you'll need fish and supplies from them...) is that when you buy a filter its really just a kit and not ready to work properly yet. It takes on average 3 to 8 weeks or so to grow a "biofilter" with the two needed specific species of bacteria but its highly unpredictable (not because the process is bad but because its very unpredictable how many live bacteria that are resistant to chlorine products will have made it through the tap water system to your tank to "seed" the process OR how many live bacteria to "seed" it will make it from the donated mature media after their fragile biofilms have been transported. There's just no getting around it, its hit or miss, but we hobbyists have no choice... this is the correct path to a good and healthy tank and its been proven over and over.

Unfortunately "bacteria in a bottle" is just a "snake oil" product basically sold because many consumers, prior to learning what biofilters are really all about, just have a vague notion that bacteria are "somehow important!" Any vague notions and there will be bottles for sale for it whether they work or not!

Good luck, we feel for ya and hang in there, the members here are great and will come back time and time again with more help if needed.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

To follow along with what WD is saying, you do still have options such as getting some donated filter media from a member here. I have a filter donation link in my signature area where you will find people willing to donate some media to get your tank started. If one is near you, you could send a PM and ask for some help getting going.
Another option that we seldom explore is plants. Plants will remove ammonia as fast as they can. The speed is usually limited by the CO2 that the plant can find and the light available to the plants. If you get floating plants such as frogbit, duckweed or water lettuce, the plants will be able to pull their CO2 from the air and will suck nutrients such as nitrogen in the ammonia from the water. If you set up a Walstad type tank, you would use plants like that and fairly high light to place fish into the tank on day 1 after the tank was set up.
Finally you could commit yourself to doing large daily water changes to control the ammonia. I have put fish into tanks when I had no cycled filter to work with. I was able to keep them alive and healthy with my tap water at about 1 ppm of ammonia until I managed to clone a filter for them. I realized that the ammonia that I was measuring was in the safer form because the water treatment was designed to work with chloramine and detoxify the ammonia. Whenever I saw a rise above my tap water, I figured it was time for a big water change of treated water. I got lucky because I had cycled filters that I could use to jump start the cycle on my tank and I didn't need to keep doing huge water changes for weeks on end.

 

[jmain]

To follow along with what WD is saying, you do still have options such as getting some donated filter media from a member here. I have a filter donation link in my signature area where you will find people willing to donate some media to get your tank started. If one is near you, you could send a PM and ask for some help getting going.
Another option that we seldom explore is plants. Plants will remove ammonia as fast as they can. The speed is usually limited by the CO2 that the plant can find and the light available to the plants. If you get floating plants such as frogbit, duckweed or water lettuce, the plants will be able to pull their CO2 from the air and will suck nutrients such as nitrogen in the ammonia from the water. If you set up a Walstad type tank, you would use plants like that and fairly high light to place fish into the tank on day 1 after the tank was set up.
Finally you could commit yourself to doing large daily water changes to control the ammonia. I have put fish into tanks when I had no cycled filter to work with. I was able to keep them alive and healthy with my tap water at about 1 ppm of ammonia until I managed to clone a filter for them. I realized that the ammonia that I was measuring was in the safer form because the water treatment was designed to work with chloramine and detoxify the ammonia. Whenever I saw a rise above my tap water, I figured it was time for a big water change of treated water. I got lucky because I had cycled filters that I could use to jump start the cycle on my tank and I didn't need to keep doing huge water changes for weeks on end.

I volunteer at a marine place so I'm sure I can get media from them. I have been keeping up with them on my tank and they haven't made it seem like it was as bad of a thing as yall are making it but I like to get multiple opinions so I can see what people think and then figure out other stuff. My whole problem with doing water changes is if I do do them I'm just going to be putting in more messed up water so why shouldn't I try to work with the water that is all ready in there?

 

[vinylman]

Again, you're getting mixed up; if you do regular large water changes using fresh, dechlorinated water, it will dilute the toxins that are building up in the tank - which is exactly why they're needed every day if the fish are still in there. Not doing water changes will make the problem even worse, as the fish are producing ammonia every time they exhale/dump/pee.

 

[jmain]

Again, you're getting mixed up; if you do regular large water changes using fresh, dechlorinated water, it will dilute the toxins that are building up in the tank - which is exactly why they're needed every day if the fish are still in there. Not doing water changes will make the problem even worse, as the fish are producing ammonia every time they exhale/dump/pee.

Wont that stress out the fish if I keep doing to big of changes? Becuase don't I have to take them out if I do a change of 50% or more which means they will be moved every day or every other day and then they will need to get used to the tank all over.