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Wanting An Indoor Local Fish (lake/river) Tank

Might I ask why you'd want to do this? It seems to me that capturing a wild animal, subjecting it to the stress of captivity, then releasing it once its become old and tamed, thus subjecting it to MORE stress by changing its environment once again, is not something a fish lover would want to do. It is very difficult, not matter how much you mimic the native environment and natural diet, to make a wild-caught animal used to captivity, which is why we see such massive incidences of disease, atypical behavior, and death in exotic pets, marine fish, and other wild caught and undomesticated species. I think you can expect some real issues in doing this, particularly in losses due to stress, illness, etc. If that does not bother you, I suppose that doesn't matter, but frankly, from an ethical standpoint, I can't really see the justification for doing this to wild fish. ((Before you say this is hypocritical of me, I keep only bettas and goldfish - both domesticated and entirely captive bred varieties of fish))
Furthermore, I daresay you will run into some problems with legality, both in capturing AND re-releasing these fish. Most states restrict the use of its natural resources - animals included - very tightly. Generally, capturing live fish for any reason other than sport or food is illegal. And re-releasing animals that have been captive for any length of time? Whoo... good luck with that one. I reckon the state would be very leery of any pathogens they could be introducing after that amount of time in a stressful captive environment, regardless of if there is logic to it or not. Gotta love how governmental organizations that release non-native fish into waterways to 'stock' them for sport fishmen have issues with how we interact with wildlife...
 
I don’t see a problem ethical or otherwise if you do the research, get compatible fish species and keep within the law. I like the idea if you could get small species that could breed in the pond/tank and wouldn’t have to be returned to the wild. I don’t know how well fish would do back in the wild after growing up in captivity but I imagine they would become prey pretty quick. All the fish we keep even if they couldn’t survive in the wild now have wild ancestry if the Chinese didn’t domesticate wild goldfish we wouldn’t have them today this is how all fish keeping started. It seems ethically less problematic than imports of wild fish that are stocked in many of our members tanks. In fact a cichlid being caught in Lake Malawi and shipped to Europe to end up in an LFS and then in a tank would have a lot more stress than a fish caught in a Texas river and moved to a Texas pond. Most of the clown loaches until recently came form Indonesian rivers, caught in traps and flown all over the world. I don’t know if they are bred now or not. Frankly I think that small native fish in a planted 1500-gallon biotope well looked after would have a good quality of life.
I think the idea could be a good one, as long as you research the fish their food lifespan etc and can provide it.
 
By sunfish I meant panfish, pumpkinseed, bluegill, whatever. They take up a lot of space and don't shoal, so they should have around 20-25 gallons to themselves.
 
I understand everyone's concerns, and promise I have been doing a lot of research on the subject as the starting point for the project (probably a year or more away from breaking ground). There are several local Native Fish associations and clubs, which I will be diving into their websites and forums for more information.

I do not see the ethical problem, as I do not want to harm the fish or just have them for my own viewing pleasure, but there is very little know about most of our domestic fish since there are few hobbyists who choose native fish over more exotic tropical species. I plan to study the fish and document their development, behavior, and breeding (though I am not any kind of zoologist or fish expert, I will do what I can). The more common local (USA) fish are the killifish from the Gulf of Mexico region. There has been a lot of research due to the amount of keepers.

I plan on keeping a catfish or two, some bass species (which all of the freshwater sun perch, blue gill, long ear, big mouth, small mouth, sand and rock etc. are all in the bass category), some minnow and shiner species. There are some minnow and shiner species which have never been bred in captivity (if a non-native fish is introduced into a lake, usually for game purposes, it could potentially wipeout a native species to the lake. If hobbyists are able to breed that species in captivity, it could potentially save them from extinction.)

For the majority of the native fish only a local fishing licenses is needed to take the fish from their natural habitat and then you can do whatever you want with them (to a point). Some species do require a special permit, which only requires registration with the local Wildlife and Game office and an inspection of the holding tank and living conditions.

The tank will be outside (my wife will not allow a 1500-gallon tank in our living room despite all my arguments for it to be right in the center). The plan will be to use a water well on the property to supply an X amount of fresh water to the tank at all times (meaning I will have say 50 gallons of water flowing into and out of the tank over a 24 hour period, which would equal a 23% water change over a weeks time) and then a simple siphon style system will be used to get out any junk off the bottom, etc. Our house is located approximately 10 miles from the lake. I plan on changing out 110 to 165 gallons of the water from the lake every 2 - 4 weeks if it seems necessary (3 - 55 gallon new trashcans with a simple pump in the back of a truck).

Returning the fish to a lake would only be done when that fish gets too large for the tank and more than likely I will pit it into my father-in-law's stock pond behind his house (about 75,000 to 150,000 gallons) stocked with catfish, perch, and minnows. This will probably take 7-10 years if they start out in the 6" range.

I understand there is a debate over keeping fish from their natural habitat, but in some cases that is the only way to learn anything about them.

I do think keeping any fish and then saying someone else should not keep a particular fish is hypocritical. Who is to say one fish should be kept while another should not? If you do not want to be hypocritical or you do want to be a naturalist, then I would think you would not keep fish at all in an aquarium, but rather in a lake, river, or their natural habitat.
 
I do think keeping any fish and then saying someone else should not keep a particular fish is hypocritical. Who is to say one fish should be kept while another should not? If you do not want to be hypocritical or a naturalist, then I would think you would not keep fish at all in an aquarium, but rather in a lake, river, or their natural habitat.
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Not entirely. There is a huge difference between keeping, say, a fully domesticated betta or guppy that was captive bred and so different from its wild form that - much like a dog or albino mouse - would never survive in the wild (being more suitable for captive living due to domestication), and buying an endangered marine fish that is being depleted in its natural habitat due to over-capture for the pet trade. Or buying a species that does poorly in captivity, or whose needs can not be properly met upon reaching maximum adult size. Or heck, buying dyed and tatooed fish.
Different situations dictate what is proper in fishkeeping, so I certainly do not think someone is being a hypocrite by reccomending against the keeping of a particular species when there are blatant ethical concerns. And for the most part, the only way we can discuss these ethical concerns is to bring them up when a topic involving them arises. Now, it sounds like what you have planned would be relatively safe for the fish involved now that you've described everything, but many people would not go to the length you have to provide for their proper care and to learn from them. If we didn't bring up the issues about caring for sunnies, and you happened to be, say, a 14 yr old with a 10g tank who just thought they looked cool and wanted to own some, the fish would have died a horrible, traumatic death. I'd rather have people be a tad hypocritical and suggest against high-maintenance fish than say nothing to avoid hurting someone's feelings and have many fish die as a result.
 
RandomWiktor said:
I do think keeping any fish and then saying someone else should not keep a particular fish is hypocritical. Who is to say one fish should be kept while another should not? If you do not want to be hypocritical or a naturalist, then I would think you would not keep fish at all in an aquarium, but rather in a lake, river, or their natural habitat.
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Not entirely. There is a huge difference between keeping, say, a fully domesticated betta or guppy that was captive bred and so different from its wild form that - much like a dog or albino mouse - would never survive in the wild (being more suitable for captive living due to domestication), and buying an endangered marine fish that is being depleted in its natural habitat due to over-capture for the pet trade. Or buying a species that does poorly in captivity, or whose needs can not be properly met upon reaching maximum adult size. Or heck, buying dyed and tatooed fish.
Different situations dictate what is proper in fishkeeping, so I certainly do not think someone is being a hypocrite by reccomending against the keeping of a particular species when there are blatant ethical concerns. And for the most part, the only way we can discuss these ethical concerns is to bring them up when a topic involving them arises. Now, it sounds like what you have planned would be relatively safe for the fish involved now that you've described everything, but many people would not go to the length you have to provide for their proper care and to learn from them. If we didn't bring up the issues about caring for sunnies, and you happened to be, say, a 14 yr old with a 10g tank who just thought they looked cool and wanted to own some, the fish would have died a horrible, traumatic death. I'd rather have people be a tad hypocritical and suggest against high-maintenance fish than say nothing to avoid hurting someone's feelings and have many fish die as a result.
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Very good points and I agree 1,000%.

Though me pointing out hypocritical sounding statements were directly related to the topics at hand (keeping native fish which would be care for as properly as could be provided), I believe my neglect to elaborate on the setup fully was the main fault (and in part by my original idea of keeping them in a 55 gallon in-house aquarium, which now I realize is completely out of the question and also why I have decided to build a 1500-gallon tank/pond). I do sincerely wish to express my gratitude for everyone that has given an opinion and fact and want everyone to know I do appreciate your input. I will use all of the knowledge outlined here to provide the best care for the fish as I possibly can.
 
RandomWiktor said:
Furthermore, I daresay you will run into some problems with legality, both in capturing AND re-releasing these fish. Most states restrict the use of its natural resources - animals included - very tightly. Generally, capturing live fish for any reason other than sport or food is illegal. And re-releasing animals that have been captive for any length of time? Whoo... good luck with that one. I reckon the state would be very leery of any pathogens they could be introducing after that amount of time in a stressful captive environment, regardless of if there is logic to it or not. Gotta love how governmental organizations that release non-native fish into waterways to 'stock' them for sport fishmen have issues with how we interact with wildlife...
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During my research, this topic was one of my main concerns. After reading some websites (I'll see if I can find them again) I've learned that most state actually encourage the keeping of native fish and in some cases will give the keeper compensation (fish farms for instance, though I'm not exactly sure what can and cannot be classified as a fish farm). The main focus is that the potential keeper has a fishing license (as if you were there to catch the fish for food or sport) and really only requires special registration on catching and keeping endangered species. I would think if you could prove the quality of life the fish will receive and the fact that you're trying to learn about them and to find a why to get them to breed to specifically be let back into the wild, you could probably qualify for a grant or government assistance of some kind.

I do not think I'm up for endangered species yet (or will be for a while even), but I think if I can start out with local fish, learn, document, breed and educate others I might be willing to try to help out a specific endangered species (I dunno, which ever one is best suited for the conditions I can supply).

I definitely understand the path to hell is paved with good intentions, but I do wish to help and learn from your aquatic friends.

x-Lucy-Fish-x said:
Liam, I think a lot of us try our hardest not to buy wild caught fish.
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x-Lucy-Fish-x, after RandomWiktor's comments I think I better understand your possession and wish to apologize if I have offended you.

I guess educating people is always the toughest part of it all.
 
x-Lucy-Fish-x said:
Liam, I think a lot of us try our hardest not to buy wild caught fish.
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Though the vast majority are not captive bred. The closest they come is being bred in fish farms in South East Asia. Move into SW and you will find that even though a number of fish can be captive bred, it is cheaper to catch from the wild, and thus most you see are wild caught - the Bangai cardinalfish is a prime example of this.

And_Hef>

The subject of keeping native fish and releasing them was covered in this thread.

nmonks covered the release of wild caughts back to the wild thus:

The problem with releasing fish into the wild is that often that fish is doomed (it has un-learned things like hunting behaviour and avoiding predators) or else can carry diseases from the aquarium to the wild. Once in a pond, there are lots of ways diseases can get into rivers and lakes -- via insects, for example, or water birds. So basically, once you have taken something from the wild, consider it yours now, for keeps.
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Actually the only species which will eventually get to large for the tank/pond will be the cat fish. They will more than likely end up in my father-in-law's stock pond where he feeds them catfish pellets daily.
 
And_Hef said:
x-Lucy-Fish-x said:
Liam, I think a lot of us try our hardest not to buy wild caught fish.
Click to expand...

x-Lucy-Fish-x, after RandomWiktor's comments I think I better understand your possession and wish to apologize if I have offended you.

I guess educating people is always the toughest part of it all.
Click to expand...

Thats ok :)

..hmm isnt it still best if you want to study their behaviour and learn about them, if you do it while they are still in the wild. Acting naturally. Most fish wouldnt act naturally if they were suddenly given a change of environment and kept in a tank, with humans peering in at them every ten minutes..
 
I would think you are correct, but I don't have the time or money to study a 2" fish in a 50,000,000 gallon lake.

I think for a more practical study of breeding behavior, a backyard pond will do quite nicely.
 
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