Vt Genetics?

[OohFeeshy]

My last breeding attempt didn't work... I'll be trying again soon, but obviously want to have as many combos as possible. I've got at least 7 available attrative males but only two females young enough to breed... Most of the males are SD, especially the 3 that I'd be willing to breed most. One of the girls is a sibling of two of those males, the other... I don't know. She's from a petshop, but one that seems to get in CT's and SD's etc. more than vT's (even though the conditions are awful). She's good colourwise (red and white cambodian), but if she does turn out to be a VT, what would I expect tailwise? The male would be a PK and SD cross.

 

[Synirr]

All VTs if she's VT, but with slightly better finnage than you usually see in VTs.

 

[afireinside]

I haven't seen a VT female in a long time, can I have a pic, I know what they look like, I just want to refresh my memory.

 

[Synirr]

I haven't seen a VT female in a long time, can I have a pic, I know what they look like, I just want to refresh my memory.

They look like every other female betta you've ever seen. It's very difficult to tell female tail types apart.
Here, these are probably VT:
http/fins.actwin.com/fresh-pics/betta_female.jpg

 

[ral]

VT's and Delta's come from different lines. Both were developed from Plakats. So I would not know which, VT or Delta, would be dominant. If Delta or Short tail is dominant... might be a fine spawn... if VT is, I quess I would not bother.

 

[Andie]

If Delta or Short tail is dominant... might be a fine spawn... if VT is, I quess I would not bother.

VT is dominant. It cancels out everything else you throw in there. That's why Synirr said if the female is really VT, all the babies would be too.

 

[Synirr]

From what I've read, VT is not a trait determined by a single gene, so it is not dominant or recessive, really. The point is that breeding a VT to a delta is going to weaken the caudal spread to such a degree that all fry will be VT . Long finnage is dominant to short finnage though, so in that respect plakats lose out.

 

[Andie]

Oooh, so . . . if a VT bred to a fish with better caudals would result in slightly better finnage, and if it's a weakness, rather than a gene, would it (in theory) be possible to breed that weakness out over successive generations of introducing better fish to the bloodline?
<-- bio geek coming to the fore for the first time in years )

 

[ral]

I guess by than we would be calling it something else, like a Delta.

 

[Synirr]

Oooh, so . . . if a VT bred to a fish with better caudals would result in slightly better finnage, and if it's a weakness, rather than a gene, would it (in theory) be possible to breed that weakness out over successive generations of introducing better fish to the bloodline?
<-- bio geek coming to the fore for the first time in years )

Yes indeedy

I guess by than we would be calling it something else, like a Delta.

And this is exactly how deltas and HMs were created; selective breeding of VTs

 

[ral]

I was under the impression that Delta's and Super Delta's came about from selective breeding of PK's... but am not really sure.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Ah well.... How do you tell PK's from VT's? I've heard PK's have a much rounder anal, but to what extent?
I guess I'll just have to switch the males around until I find a combo that works... Or go hunting for another cheap female...

 

[Synirr]

I was under the impression that Delta's and Super Delta's came about from selective breeding of PK's... but am not really sure.

The long-finned trait is controlled by a single gene, so it can not be produced through selective breeding. It had to present itself through a random mutation in a line of plakats, which resulted in the first VTs (the Libby bettas). These were then selectively bred for wider caudal spreads, resulting first in deltas, then HMs.

Ah well.... How do you tell PK's from VT's? I've heard PK's have a much rounder anal, but to what extent?
I guess I'll just have to switch the males around until I find a combo that works... Or go hunting for another cheap female...

Plakat females do have a rounder anal fin, but it's basically impossible to tell for sure unless you know the genetic history of the fish. For example:

This female is plakat
http/img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/syni...s2/DSCN3098.jpg

Judging by the anal fin of this female, you'd think she's plakat... but no, she's from HM lines
http/img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/syni...s2/DSCN3002.jpg

Another female plakat
http/img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/syni...s2/DSCN2529.jpg

Here are some ladies with very long and pointy anal fins who are almost certainly long-finned, but then again, little Mini's anal fin looks a lot like this now and she's plakat
http/fins.actwin.com/fresh-pics/betta_female.jpg

 

[OohFeeshy]

Ah yeah, see what you mean. Mhm, I'll check, I have a feeling hers was rather rounder than Tiberias, but we shall see.