Very strange

[ostrow]

Oh -- important question I have never gotten a clear answer on from stores or anyone yet:

When using Maracyn and Maracyn II, should I or should I not do daily or otherwise frequent water changes? Or wait to change water until after treatment is done (5 days)?

This strikes me as important.

Quick Cure seems to call for a daily water change if it is the same as the item in the article you posted.

Parasite Clear from Tank Buddies. If there were good directions, I'd have no questions. All it says is it clears internal and external parasites with active ingredients too lengthy to reproduce here (the words look vaguely like those in insect repellents: dimethyl 2,2,2....)

For internals says one tablet per 10 glalons, repeated up to 2x with 48 hrs between treatments and a 25% water change. Unclear entirely if that means water change between or after treatment, or both, or how soon after. That's all it says.

 

[Alien Anna]

I agree that you must stop adding more fish. My worry is that the symptoms you describe could be fish TB, which although nowhere near as serious as the human disease, is horrible for fish (causing them to die a long, slow death by wasting away).

Fish TB (and other chronic infections and infestations) are around a tank all the time, but they come out and start producing symptoms if the fish is stressed. Things that stress fish include:
* Water quality problems (including pH).
* Constantly changing environment (adding new plants, new bogwood etc.).
* New tank-mates (particularly territorial ones like most algae eaters).
* High or low temperatures.
* Lack of caves and hiding places.
* Lights going on and off at random times.

Your fish need calm and rest if they are to recover from their problems. I recommend the use of Melafix, a tea-tree oil based remedy which is useful for low-grade infections, can be used with other meds and actually boost the immune system (it can be easily obtained on the Net and is fantastic stuff). I would suggest you cut their rations (digesting food actually stresses sick fish), keep the lights on for no more than 8 hours a day, reduce the temperature (the ick cure shouldn't need high temp to work and your fish are already suffering badly from stress) and don't introduce any new fish until you have had no serious health problems for at least a month.

Oh, and get yourself a quarantine/hospital tank for emergencies, with a spare heater, a spare air-pump and a cheap sponge filter (which you can "seed" by stuffing the sponge in your main tank).

 

[Davy Reynolds]

As to a comment for Anna, about TB not being as bad as the human form. It can lead to humans getting infected from there fish. The utmost care must e taken if TB is suspected. Rainbows are the most likely fish to have TB

As to water changes, I'd just do the normal ones. there is no point uping the changes this will stress the fish even more. Do treatments then give it a normal water change then just do your normal routine

 

[Alien Anna]

Hi, I've researched piscine TB (I happen to live near a vet research centre) and this is what I've discovered:

1. It's endemic to the domestic fish population, although usually subclinical (no symptoms). It usually shows itself in elderly or sickly fish.
2. Fish TB is not very contagious.
3. Fish TB in humans is exceptionally rare (a couple of cases a year, usually among fishermen and fish farmers).
4. In humans, fish TB usually causes slow healing ulcers on the hand and arms. It is not related to human TB and does not cause problems to any human body systems except the skin.
5. Fish TB in fish is practically incurable, unless you catch it early enough, but like pneumonia in humans, it could be considered "The Old Man's Friend" (Welsh expression, because it is a peaceful way to die).
6. Fish TB in humans is easily treated, once the causative organism has been identified (since it is so rare, there are often delays in treatment).
7. Most Fish TB goes undiagnosed. It's only since we've been fish-farming on such a huge scale that research has been done into this disease and a vaccine is being developed - but largely because it causes weight-loss in the animals, not because of any serious concerns about humans contracting Fish TB.

So basically, the vets suggested that there is a lot of scare-mongering going on. I was advised to maintain normal hygeine (washing hands, keep cuts covered with waterproof dressings, avoid cross-contamination of fish-tanks) but not to worry too much about it. I've lost two old fish from TB recently.

 

[Davy Reynolds]

Thats a little more detail than I've ever read. Most of the stuff I've read comes from Austraila and seems to err on the side or a higher risk. I'm more slightly at ease now
Thoguh I was sure you didn't keel over just by putting your hand in an effected tank.

 

[ostrow]

Thanks for all the info guys. It isn't TB though. This is hardly a slow death.

I think Rose's diagnoses was close to the mark on the problem.

I'll stop with the water changes.

 

[adeyc]

yep. I'd go with Rose.

Anna, can I ask where you found your info on TB is it from the vet's?. There are a couple of points that arent right.

1. fish TB is highly contagious if not caught quickly. Means you have to scrub the tank and everything in it.
2. it has the following symptoms: Emaciation, hollow belly, possibly sores.

Tuberculosis is caused by the bacterium Mycobacterium piscium. Fish infected with tuberculosis may become hollow bellied, pale, show skin ulcers and frayed fins, and loss of appetite. Yellowish or darker nodules may appear on the body or eyes. The main cause for this disease appears to be over crowding in unkempt conditions.

Thats more or less the most recent info published there are a couple of other things but I'll have to look through the paperwork to find where I put the latest stuff.

 

[adeyc]

Should have mentioned I thought it may have been TB to start with thats why the questions were geared like that.
it does sound more like scepticemea though.

 

[Alien Anna]

Anna, can I ask where you found your info on TB is it from the vet's?. There are a couple of points that arent right.

1. fish TB is highly contagious if not caught quickly. Means you have to scrub the tank and everything in it.
2. it has the following symptoms: Emaciation, hollow belly, possibly sores.

The info I posted on TB was what the vet told me. He's a specialist fish vet with an excellent reputation in these parts. Seeing as he lives in Cambridge, I have no doubt he has access the very latest information. He is a fish-keeper himself and has worked on fish farms, over many years.

By way of confirmation, I asked a medical doctor friend of mine about piscine TB. He confirmed what the vet had said (re. the effects in humans).

As for the contagiousness of piscine TB in fish, this is difficult to estimate (I am told) due to the high rate of sub-clinical TB (basically, ANY fish you have could have TB, or all of them, only you'd never know about it). However, with healthy, not overly old fish, kept in clean conditions, it is not a major worry. It does not appear anywhere near as contagious as some of the literature makes out. This information was confirmed by various sources, including the "Fishopaedia" and by talking to a couple of other vets of my acquaintance.

Scrubbing down a tank if you even suspect TB could be considered somewhat extreme, especially if you have elderly, sick fish who are highly prone to developing symptoms that can look like TB (emaciation, sores, hollow belly etc. can also be signs of aging, plus TB is far more common in elderly fish). 99% of the stuff I've seen written about piscine TB seems to confuse it with human TB - such as the guy who told me to put down every single one of my 32 fish because I suspected one might have symptoms!

Cleanliness and good water quality is the best way to prevent TB, IMHO. Do you do a total strip-down and sterilisation of your tank every time a skinny fish dies? I'd imagine you'd be more likely to kill your fish with the stress and an un-cycled tank than you'd actually save from TB!

 

[adeyc]

K you picked me up wrong or I didn't make myself clear. I was just trying to find out the most uptodate info. Your guy seems well enough qualified and expereinced, my info came from Glasgow University by the way. I wouldn't recommend stripping and scrubbing unless all the inhabitants are infected and t.b's been confirmed, as you've said it's a bit drastic and the cycling process will definetly not help any fish.
And I agree with what you've said about humans conracting piscine tb but as any doc will tell you diferent things effect different folks in all sorts of ways.

The best thing to do to avoid Piscine TB and any other illnes is have clean water. 99.9 times of 100 (ok maybe not as much) diseases,infections etc result from dirty/poluted water in the tank. Thats why it's important to check the levels of ammonia etc regularly and do regular water changes when needed(I say when needed as there are a few peeps out there that haven't had to change any water for over a year and everythings perfect in the tank. If only we all could be so lucky).
BTW I used to work on a fish farm years ago Trout mainly and salmon now and again. I know the enviroments different so things need to be done slightly diferently and on a far bigger scale(no pun intended ) but the principals the same. on the whole most folks don't know a thing about fish diseases untill they need to then it's a mad panic and they usualy go with the first thing it sounds like/looks like. Glad your here to add your bit in things as well.

the guy who told me to put down every single one of my 32 fish because I suspected one might have symptoms!

THe guy was either the owner of an lfs and thought he'd be able to make some money from you or didn't have a clue. probably both. Beware unscruplious(sp?) dealers.

 

[Alien Anna]

K you picked me up wrong or I didn't make myself clear. I was just trying to find out the most uptodate info

Sorry - I'm married to a former accademic and I do get carried away! The truth is probably that there is very little research into fish diseases, as compared to land animal livestock. After all, commercial fish-farming (which is the real incentive to these people to do such research) has only been the vast industry it is now for a few years.

I suspect the truth is somewhere between the two extremes of "It only matters because it causes food fish to lose weight" and "It's a terrible disease that will wipe out your stock".

The best thing to do to avoid Piscine TB and any other illnes is have clean water. 99.9 times of 100 (ok maybe not as much) diseases,infections etc result from dirty/poluted water in the tank.

I've repeated this quote because it should be stapled on the heart of every fish-keeping newbie. I don't think I've shared with this group the tragic tale of my toxic gravel - when I was first given my tank, I had fish dropping like flies from the sulphur dioxide trapped in gravel that hadn't been cleaned for 10 years. I thought my water quality was great, apart from vast nitrate levels. I couldn't have been more wrong!

on the whole most folks don't know a thing about fish diseases untill they need to then it's a mad panic and they usualy go with the first thing it sounds like/looks like.

The scary thing about fish (as opposed to human patients) is that you cannot ask them for history! Last night, I had a crisis in my tank which I put down to all kinds of illnesses, but it turned out to be an unexpected spike in my nitrite levels (I'd transplanted filter media and water to another tank, and I'd over-done it a little). I think the moral is: Don't panic. Oh, and after you've stopped panicking, do a water change!

"the guy who told me to put down every single one of my 32 fish because I suspected one might have symptoms!"

THe guy was either the owner of an lfs and thought he'd be able to make some money from you or didn't have a clue.

LOL! But so true