Very Rapid Guppy Deterioration Two Tanks

[missparadox]

I noticed in the 90L last night a few of the guppies were flashing against the sand. Did 10% water change and checked stats. Nothing out of the ordinary. This morning everything was normal, didn't see any flashing, behaviour was the same. They were fine at lunch time but a few hours later every guppy bar one fry and two adults had clamped up and were gasping at the top in a circle. The cory's were acting as active as always, the juvenile sword tail and snail was also fine. The 90L has about 6 adult guppies effected and three juveniles. 
 
Checked the 180L and was shocked to find the exact same thing. Guppies were clamped up and sitting at the top in a crowd. My BN, Bolivan rams, neon tetras and Glass catfish were completely normal. Looked at my female sword tail ( only one in the tank ) and she was lingering in some plants, not really clamped up but not looking 100% either. This tank has 5 juveniles and six adults effected. The days old fry in a breeders net in this tank are unaffected. 
 
90L has been through a revamp, long story short all media, substrate and plants have been transferred over including lots of seeded material. Has been running for two weeks with fish and am yet to see a mini cycle. Didn't anticipate one but you never know. 
 
180l was also a recently upgraded tank ( several tanks moved into one ) again all the media was transferred and it has been running for near three months now without a hiccup.
 
I am at a complete loss to think on what it may be. It has come on very quickly, no colour change, no fin damage, no visible signs of anything. When the tank was disturbed they came to life only to eventually settle back up the top in a group. 
 
As far as cross contamination goes, the 90l has had a few new additions. Two guppies ( they are the guppies not effected ) and lots of plants. The 180l has only had one new addition, one guppy from the 90L. That guppy was moved prior to the majority of plants and new fish had been added in. 
 
Tank size: 90l / 180l
pH: 90 L 8  180l 7 ( Tap water, running a airstone in a bucket now. Last time check it was around 7 -8. Prior to the moves my tanks were very very soft. All fish are drip acclimatised. Haven't noticed a pH crash in either tank since the moves. 
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 2 ( Slightly higher in 90l, not quite 2.5 though ) 
kH: Can't for the life of me find my test kits for these two. Last time I checked KH was pretty high, I am hesitant to think it has changed much. Tap water has been constantly high too. 
gH: ^^
tank temp: 90L 27.5 celsius,  180 26 celsius
 
Current treatment; begun to add salt. I usually run my tanks with a low level of salt anyways. Something that has been lacking since the move. 25% water change on the 90L and an air stone added at water level to agitate the surface a bit on the off chance it is oxygen related. 
 
Would greatly appreciate any ideas or thoughts. I am very hesitant to treat something that could be anything. 
 
Edited for update. 
One has died in the 180L. Died looking completely normal. Normal slime coat, eyes normal, gills and colour normal.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hmmm...that is very odd, I can appreciate your concern
 
I would be tempted, as long as your tank water is close to what's coming out of your taps, do do a very large water change (75 or 80%), on at least one of the tanks, as there could always be something wrong with the water we can't/don't test for, and see how things look then.
 
Have you got nitrate and nitrite mixed up, btw? I don't know of any test kits that measure nitrate as low as 2ppm. If you have any reading for nitrite, then adding salt is probably your best option; this thread, on fish-in cycles, http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/  details the best course to take when dealing with high nitrite.

 

[missparadox]

Thank you! I know they are only guppies and I often complain about the fry not getting eaten often enough. But some of these guys were born two years ago in these tanks and they have grown on me xD
 
When I rewrote this on Facebook I realise the nitrite v nitrate mistake, it is supposed to be 20 and just under 25 for nitrate. Sorry! Forget to fix it up over here. 
 
I was just contemplating the same thing. I was going to give the 90L another hour or so just to monitor them. Then I may take out a further 40% and go from there. I am still at a loss at what has caused this though. 
 
Thanks again for replying. 
 
Edited to add in further explanation of my nitrate mistake

 

[star4]

Doing a re-vamp on the 90l and combining the others in the 180 may have disturbed some bacteria you cannot test for. I ditto FM advice and do as large a wc as you possibly can on both tanks.

 

[missparadox]

I am even more perplexed now. A male died in the 180l I realised I only had one male in the 180l, that would suggest that I never moved one over in the first place. If that is the case then how are both tanks showing the same problem? None of my equipment is shared between tanks, none of my plants and my hands are washed prior to handling each tank. This tank was set up months ago and since then bar water changes nothing has been touched. The only link was that single guppy which I never moved over as he is still in the 90l. 
 
Can it be airborne? Is that even possible? 
 
Thanks star, will get onto that and let you guys know. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Sounds a little unusual.
 
ave you or your partner recently had polish or spraying deodorants or set a a plug air freshener sort of thing in the same room as the tanks?
 
Have you added anything new to both or either tanks?
 
All seems to have begun with your revamp of your tanks, mini cycle is what am thinking but its does not quite add up to that though. Somehting is missing.
 
Did you do anything with the filters?
Cleaning,  rinsed in tap water or new media, sponge,etc etc
 
Process of elimination i think, so all the questions do serve a purpose to try and get to the bottom of this.
 
Sorry this is happening to you at the moment, hopefully we will get there.

 

[missparadox]

I interrogated ( not very gently ) everyone in the house and they swear that nothing was sprayed or cleaned around there. They are in separate areas of the house too. 
 
I was thinking mini cycle too, but there is a good few months between the tanks and nothing is showing up in my tests. 
 
There has been plenty of new things in the 90l, I wasn't surprised till I noticed the same thing in the 180. Nothing has gone in there. 
 
It has been many years since I have 'cleaned' the filter with tap water. Hang on! The 90l had half a new wool filter pad( under the old filter pad ), the 180l had a section of the same filter pad placed in the filter. By section I mean 4 by 4 cm to replace some seeded material I pulled out. It was the only wool pad I had left, still in its container it came in, but it wasn't labeled. Just had filter wool on it. This was about 9 days ago though? 
 
Thank you  

 

[Ch4rlie]

The new wool filter pad, hmm, would have doubted that would affect your tank.
 
Unless of course if this is chemically fragranced wool?
 
The only other thing i could see is the temp of you 90 is a little on high side at 27.5C / 82F.
 
Hmm....

 

[missparadox]

Me either, I remember buying it at a pet store. Looked thick but I remember rinsing it and smelling it because it was unbranded when I opened it up last week. If it was something in a wool pad it would be a pretty big coincidence to create the same reaction at the exact same time? 
 
I could start bringing it down in the 90l down to what the 180l is at, but if they are both showing it? 
 
I am seriously starting to think something like a spray or cleaning products, but why only the guppies and how in both rooms?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Another question here. When you moved over everything did you both add dechlor and then a liquid carbon supplement such as Flourish Excel? Both of these are reducing agents and if combined they can cause a drop in the oxygen levels in a tank.
 
When a contaminant that harms/kills gets into a tank it is usually indiscriminate in terms of what it affects. Various fish can succumb faster than others but usually almost all will be affected.
 
Nitrite works to make blood unable to carry oxygen. The result is even in well oxygenated water the fish appear to be gasping for air. The thing about nitrite inside a fish is there nothing we can do will remove it. It must work its way out over a day or so. What we can do is to deal with the cause. This could be water changes, but it can also be done by using salt (actually the chloride in the salt) as you can read in the link flutter provided. This means even when one takes the proper remedial measures that the fish may not react to them right away.
 
My best guess here is you had a mini-spike and the ammonia was gone before you noticed the nitrite problem. Between turning up some nasty stuff in the substrate during the move, there is also the fact that such a move stresses the fish. When fish are stressed, they become more susceptible to the effects of ammonia/nitrite as well to pathogens and other adverse conditions. And lets not forget that the ammonia bacs will reproduce back to strength before the nitrite bacs do so.

 

[missparadox]

Good question, didn't actually know that. But neither tank had anything added bar the dechlor. 
 
​What are the chances of having a mini spike at the same time in both tanks? I appreciate what you are saying and if it was just the 90l I wouldn't have even hesitated in wondering what it was. Had it pegged as that straight away, last night when they were flashing I was assuming something along the same lines. But for the 180 who has been consistent for near three months now, to spike at the same time? The 180 was set up months before we moved the 90l around. 
 
​Lets assume however that this is the cause, would I keep adding the salt as required and lay off the extra WC for tonight? Or would it still be beneficial to do an extra 40% WC just in case? Never been a huge fan of big WC but I can appreciate when one will be needed. 

 

[star4]

Just a thought. With problems in both tanks at the same time but a time difference between changing both tanks,  it might be worth contacting your water supplier just in case any work has been done on pipelines that may have affected your tap water.
 
Does your dechlorinator do chlorine and chloramine? More water companies are starting to use more chloramine than chlorine (well in the UK not sure if its the same for you *just thinking*)

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Bad dechlor? Mixed up bottles and you did not actually dechlor? I would also check with the water co as suggested.

 

[missparadox]

I had been using prime, for all the water changes since this started I switched to a new one just in case having had the same thought. 
 
The 180l was due for a water change today. The water in the 90l had been changed a few days prior. Would make sense for the 90l but again not for the 180l. Am checking today in any case. Someone suggested that the change of seasons the water companies will push through different things to combat the change of temp? In any case would be worth looking into it. 
 
They seem to be swimming into the filter outtake today, with that and the flashing I would have thought itch or some irritant? 
 
About to lose another one, this time from the 90l. 
 
Will let you know what the water co said. 

Two weeks ago they worked on a burst pipe a suburb over. The water was shut off in the next street but not ours. Other than that no work has been done.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Maybe be an idea to test your tap water, just to be sure.