Very Pale And Not Moving Threadfin Rainbow

[Ch4rlie]

mmmm I may be wrong but I wouldn't think your nitrate levels would be of a concern at those levels.
 
Ya know...and you probably won't appreicate me saying this now lol - BUT with this being a timid and schooling species and with melafix being such a mild treatment, I maybe would have left her in the main tank so she's with the group (lessens stress) and melafix wouldn't have done any harm to the existing fish. Now, if the problem was stress from being harassed by other fish, then the QT tank will be a benefit.
 
How's she doing today?

Actually I do appreciate that comment, I did debate for quite a while whether to put threadfin into Quarantine tank, and decided to wait until morning/afternoon after seeing these symptoms. She was worse the following day and she is the smallest of the females in that tank so assumed could be a combination of harassment/bullying and/or an internal bacteria illness (probably mild form).
 
So decided to err on the safe side to transfer her as wanted to treat with, as you say, mild treatment of Melafix as I do have shrimps and assassin snails in main tank and did not want them affected.
 
She seem to be better today, swimming much more lively and no red under skin but still very pale, almost transparent really.
 
So have dosed today's treatment of Melafix and will do until end of week and see how she is, but last night she definitely took a turn for the worse, red under skin came back and swimming very unsteadily and right at the surface of water. Was not nice to see her going through a tough time but very little could do and juts kept fingers crossed.
 
And now am considering getting 7 more females and taking 7 males back to LFS to make a much better ratio of males to females 1:2. Or perhaps could just return the 3 females and get 3 more males so would be all males Threadfins. 
 
Not decided yet.
 
Anyway, will keep an eye on her and will get some aquarium salt from LFS today to keep in cupboard should I ever need it.
 
Thanks

 

[Ch4rlie]

Advice about the various types of salts available would be great.
 
Have just read on another thread that aquarium salt is the wrong kind of salt for brackish fish.
 
I believe that Threadfin Rainbowfish can be found in brackish waters, so therefore Threadfins are brackish fish is that right? Sorry if thats a silly question!
 
So does that mean the aquarium salts I've just put in the tank the wrong type?
 
Just wish I read that thread first before putting in the aquarium salt, now am doubtful if I have done the wrong or right thing?
 
So, if anyone can clarify for me the correct type of salt most suitable for my Threadfin in the quarantine tank.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Errrm, I'm pretty sure it's the right stuff - it's what I would use anyway! 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Ok, will keep an eye on my threadfin just in case of any changes due to the salt.
 
BTW she does seem to be getting more lively but at times, usually in evenings, she does stay by the water surface for quite some time, so not too sure what that means.
 
Got filter flowing through water causing slight ripples on surface as well as an airstone to be doubly sure its not lack of oxygen in water. 
Correctly dosed with dechlorinater.
Temperature around 23 to 24C (73 to 75F)
 
Would still like advice regarding the various salts and what they are suitable for in regards to brackish and FW as it an interesting topic and useful knowledge to learn, to me anyway.

Have just done a large water change, about 90% as found nitrite at about 10 to 15ppm, so that would explain why she was at the surface of water as nitrite would reduce her ability to absorb oxygen despite the tank being well aerated.
 
The salt added will hopefully be the right type or at least do no harm to threadfin, and help control nitrite levels a bit.
 
Whew, a big learning curve this, for me.
 
But am happy to learn all this as good experience and picked up pointers for future references.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Sounds like you didn't move enough media from your main tank filter

Or maybe the bacteria in your filter wasn't quite established enough to cope with being moved around

 

[Ch4rlie]

Am a little surprised about that myself as the filter has been in use for 2 years so the media should have be well established. I only put in a handful of the bio media in the new filter as its only for the one small fish.
 
Having said that, there has been no ammonia shown at all so am unsure if the media is actually cycling or not but will keep testing the water every day to be sure.
 
Sounds like I did not put in enough media?

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Yep , must be the case! I always use sponges if I'm seeding a filter because they look really nasty lol - like there's plenty of good stuff in them. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Oxygenating the water will not alleviate nitrite poisoning, salt can help but its the chloride in the salt that counts, the amount is fairly low and is calculated to be 10 times the nitrite level to fix the problem. the chloride in the salt blocks the nitrite inside the fish from doing what it would to block oxygen.
 
A hospital tank does not need to be cycled. In fact it is often actually a waste of good media and bacteria to try. It is for treating a fish in a way it doesn't affect the tank. There are other benefits, but the expectation is some strong meds may be used which could kill the bio- filter anyway. And then what if the fish dies and either you do not know why or else you know its from something nasty? You can not reused anything without sterilizing it with a good bleach solutions. this includes the biomedia, and out goes the bacteria again.
 
Regular water changes keep an H tank safe for me. Use a heater and have some flow. But also put in a plastic plant or two to make most fish feel safer and thus less stressed. The is no point in using water from the main tank to fill an H tank. You may just be putting the very pathogen causing the problem into the H tank. Use clean fresh water.
 
I know your tank was cycled, so there should be no ammonia issues, but what you describe sounds similar to ammonia poisoning. But it also sounds like what is called "red pest" so you should look into this:
 

 
Red Pest
    Symptoms: Bloody streaks on fins or body.   
 
Red Pest is called such because of bloody streaks that appear on the body, fins and/or tail. These streaks could proceed to ulcerations and possibly lead to fin and tail rot with, in severe cases, the tail and/or fins falling off. As the disease is internal, external treatments are usually not effective, except in very slight cases.
In slight cases, treat the aquarium with a disinfectant and clean the aquarium as best as possible. Do not feed a lot while the aquarium is being treated. To disinfect, use acriflavine (trypaflavine) or monacrin (monoaminoacridine) using a 0.2% solution at the rate of 1 ml per liter. Both disinfectants will color the water, but the color disappears as the disinfectants dissipates. If the fish do not appear to respond favorably, discontinue disinfections.

     Then add an antibiotic to the food. With flake food, use about 1% of antibiotic and carefully mix it in. If you keep the fish hungry they should eagerly eat the mixture before the antibiotic dissipates. Antibiotics usually come in 250 mg capsules. If added to 25 grams of flake food, one capsule should be enough to treat dozens of fish. A good antibiotic is chloromycetin (chloramphenicol). Or use tetracycline. If you feed your fish frozen foods or chopped foods, try to use the same ratio with mixing. As a last resort add at most 10 mg per liter of water.

fromhttp/animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm#RedPest
 
In the UK those med names are of little help, but if the above is the problem it appears to need an antibiotic to help and that its best if it can be fed rather than water dosed.
 
Its also possible if its just the one fish and all the rest are OK, You may have just gotten one sick from the store, it happens.
 
The males are easy to spot, they all display. Watch for what I describe as little butterflies in a tank as they raise and lower their fins. They are trying to attract females who do not engage in this behavior. The males finage and color are far nicer than the females.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thanks, it does seem to be just the one that appears to be sick, ammonia poisoning would not explain why just that one fish got pale and red blood streak whereas all the other fish were fine in the main tank before I transferred her to hospital tank.
 
Although am fairly certain she was at the surface of water recently in hospital tank due to nitrites, so am trying to keep that under control by large water changes daily to keep an lowest levels as possible.
 
And yes, may have to concur with you it might just simply be to the fact she was already sick when bought her from LFS, all the threadfins were pale when I first put them in the main tank so did not notice anything out of ordinary. Am hoping in a week or two she will be to her best and her weak tea colour is returning.
 
So hopefully have turned the corner and the salt will be of some benefit. Stopped using the Melafix 2 days ago. Fingers crossed!

 

[Meeresstille]

I've found this article very helpful when I was deciding on which salt to use for ich treatment: http/www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=1021.0

 

[Ch4rlie]

I've found this article very helpful when I was deciding on which salt to use for ich treatment: http/www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=1021.0

 
A very interesting read. Enjoyed reading that. 
 
But TBh it does not really clarify very much for me except for two 'facts'
1 - Does little harm in hard water between gH and kH 8 - 12, my water hardness is right at the higher end of 10 to 12 so thats not a problems.
 
2 - Salt does reduce temporarily the nitrite levels, that is a big plus for me and that is what am really after since my filter is doing little for nitrite levels.
 
So basically the benefits of either marine or aquarium salts does not do a great deal for fish illnesses, brackish water conditions etc.
 
Really interesting, thanks for that link Meeresstille.

 

[Ch4rlie]

An update with a couple of pics.
 
Threadfin has now seemed to have regained a lot of colour back, not quite 100% but seems to be getting there.
 
Now can be seen swimming all over tank, mooching for food!
 
Have included 2 pics, one before and one after, sorry for blurry pics, really do need to get a decent camera! But you get the general idea.
And a pic of quarantine tank with with 4 fake plastic plants, a fake coral rock, heater and filter as well as an airstone.
 

6 days ago, very pale and blood streak can be seen just behind gills, also later spread to lower abdomen.
(you can see blurry pic of normal coloured threadfin top left corner to compare)
 

Today, much darker in colour, almost normal colour, nearly there. Very little bloodstreak can be seen, vastly reduced.
 

Set up of quarantine tank, very basic with 4 plastic plants, fake coral rock, heater, filter and airstone. You can see the threadfin between plastic plant and white rock looking for food. Tank has about 50 litres at the moment. Too big I know but all i had at the time. Plan to get a 20 litre cheap tank in future.

 

[Ch4rlie]

A bit of an update on my single Threadfin that has been in the quarantine tank for nearly 2 weeks now.
 
She seem much perkier now, about 4 days ago she was right at bottom of tank, barely moving and hiding a lot.
Don't know if fish get depressed or not but that the nearest could think was whats wrong at the time. 
 
Now she is out and is actively eating her food and has a bit of appetite, although she completely ignores bloodworms!
Will only eat Hikari Micro Pellets if crushed a little bit to smaller size!
 
Think must be a fussy eater or bloodworms too big, might get some frozen mini bloodworms instead as well as frozen brine shrimp.
 
Anyway, since has been nearly 2 weeks since being transferred to quarantine tank, am thinking its now about time for her to go back to main tank with all the other threadfins as do not want her to be by herself for too long. And she seems to be ok now.
Hopefully the others in main tank won't bully/harrass her too much like last time as I think that was what caused all this.
 
Is 2 weeks enough to know that she is fine and if ok, to move back to main tank? 
Have read on other threads people say its best to stay in quarantine for 4 weeks, seems a long time for a shoaling fish to be alone?
 
Opinions?

 

[Ch4rlie]

A bit of an update.
 
As you can see from previous post, my female Threadfin was doing very well and seemed to be back to normal self afetr more than 2 weeks in quarantine tank.
 
Decided to move her back into the main tank.
 
She was really perky and got some colour back and looked well, but over the next day she started to get pale again and not eating etc. Decided to leave her in the tank for a day or two to see how things get on.
 
Unfortunately, last night, she died! 

 
Really am stumped why this happened. She was fine in quarantine tank and water parameters between main tank and quarantine tank is almost exactly the same.
 
She was acclimatised into main tank very slowly and no problems at all.
 
The only differences between the two tanks are pH is slightly lower, only by 0.4 at very most, there are a few bogwood and moss balls in main tank which makes the water more brackish which I believe rainbowfish likes and thrives in.
 
Could pH do this?
 
All the other threadfins are perfectly healthy, swimming about and very good appetites, good colours, no gasping or red gills, fins and tails in good shape, no spots or symptoms at all.
 
Shrimps and snails all good, moving about as normally, not hiding or at surface of water or anything like that at all.
 
So, why just the one threadfin was affected?
 
Going to put this down as one of these things.
 
But if anyone has any ideas or suggestions why this may be. Would be appreciated so I can learn from this.