Various New Start Up Questions

[moon]

Hello everyone.

I recently acquired a nice looking 190L tank (who ever said geometry was useless!?). Since I have no experience with caring for fish, I've been studying up on the web. My head is now ready to explode, so I was hoping you kind folk could help me focus my mind a little by answering some of my questions (I've rambled a bit so questions highlighted in blue).

Here are some design thoughts....

• I want to make a happy home for my fishy friends that is interesting for me to watch and moderately easy for me to care for.
• I want live plants, but initially without additional CO2 or other complexity (I want to focus on the fishies first).
• I like the look of sand with some interesting rocks or wood pieces.
• Where possible I would like to minimise the use of additives, pH adjusters etc. So I want to choose fish that will thrive in my local water.

Tap water
Here is an extract of my first phone call to my water supplier....
<Me> Hello. I need some information on the chemistry of my water supply as I want to keep tropical fish.
<Water Co.> Sure. Let me bring up information on your area. What do you need to know?
<Me> I need the pH, General & Carbonate hardness and chemicals used to treat the water.
<Water Co.> What do you mean?
<Me> You know - Chlorine, Chloramine that sort of thing.
<Water Co.> Oh. Let me consult my team leader.
<Short pause>
<Water Co.> I 'm afraid we don't know anything about that here.
<Me> But your a water company! Don't you know what goes into the water you supply?
<Water Co.> Sorry.

After calling the head office I got through to a water chemist, but I am not sure what he told me actually means!
Total Hardness = 130 mg/l as Calcium (325 mg/l as Calcium Carbonate or 23 as degrees clarke)
Alkalinity = 260 - 290 (mean 279) mg/l as bicarbonate (HCO3)
Non Carbonate Hardness = 80 - 100 (mean 88) mg/l
1. Does the above tell me my GH, KH and/or pH !?

He also said that the water was treated with Chlorine in winter and Chloramine in summer. He advised that leaving the water stand in a bucket for a few days would allow even the Chloramine to dissipate.
2. Is this true? Is anything else required to prepare the tap water for use when adding water to the tank?

Test kits
Messing about with liquid test kits seems so.... crude.
3. Is there any affordable electronic test device that does the key tests (GH, KH, pH, nitrate etc.)?

Filter & heater
I'm tempted by a Eheim 2126 Thermo.
4. Any downside to having the filter and heater combined?
5. Is the only difference between the normal and "LTD edition" the bundled media?

Suppliers
6. Any recommendations on shops in Central/East London to buy the fish & plants?

Fishless cycling
The guides I've read recommend using bacteria from an existing tank to kick start the process.
7. Is a bacteria seed really neccesary for fishless cycling?
8. If so, how do I know that my supplier has clean/good bacteria in their tanks?

Many thanks for reading all this. I look forward to more interactions with this fine community!

Regards
Moon

 

[dwarfgourami]

Hi and welcome to the forum! Congratulations on the new tank too; that's a nice size.

Can't answer all your questions, but I can do a few.


"He also said that the water was treated with Chlorine in winter and Chloramine in summer. He advised that leaving the water stand in a bucket for a few days would allow even the Chloramine to dissipate.
Is this true? Is anything else required to prepare the tap water for use when adding water to the tank?"

I wouldn't rely on that. You can get a cheap dechlorinator in your fish shop and treat the water instantaneously, much safer.

"Messing about with liquid test kits seems so.... crude.
Is there any affordable electronic test device that does the key tests (GH, KH, pH, nitrate etc.)?"

Not that I know of. The ones you are going to need to test most often are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, so make sure those are included. The liquid test kits are quite quick and easy to use.

"Fishless cycling
The guides I've read recommend using bacteria from an existing tank to kick start the process.
Is a bacteria seed really neccesary for fishless cycling?"

Nope. It can speed up the process but doesn't make it better in any way. All you need for fishless cycling is pure household ammonia from hardware store and a test kit. And patience- but you're going to need that anyway for fishkeeping.

"If so, how do I know that my supplier has clean/good bacteria in their tanks?"

You don't. Don't get their media unless you really, really trust them.

 

[SkiFletch]

1. Yes, it tells you about GH and KH, but I dont know how to do the useful conversions, hopefully someone here will. It does not tell you about pH

2. Yes, very true. Chlorine and Chloramine will evaporate from your tapwater usually in 24 hours

3. Nope, no such affordable beast exhists. While they may be crude, the liquid test kits offer the best reliability that most hobbyists can afford. The only automatic type tester I've ever seen is a product made by Seachem which constantly monitors ammonia levels only. I've never used it so I have no idea of its reliability, but its out there. Forget what its exact name is.

4. Never tried one, cant comment

5. Same as above

6. Dont even live in the same country

7. Bacterial seeds are not NECESSARY, but they will greatly speed up the process of Cycling if you can get some. As mentioned in articles here the best way to find them is from filter material of an established tank, there are other methods with decreasing effectiveness.

8. Well its not a matter of the nitrifying bacteria being clean, its a matter of the media being free from other fish diseases like whitespot/columnaris/etc. As far as that goes, how long have you been observing the way your LFS keeps their tanks? If they're well kept for a period of a month or so and you dont see a lot of diseased tanks you've got a pretty good shot at getting some safe media from them. If they all look cloudy, nasty, and diseased ridden, I wouldn't put their media in my tank. Also, in general you'll have a better chance for success with a privately owned local fish store as opposed to a big chain petstore. Here in the US the big chains around me are Petco and Petsmart, both of which I wouldnt go near with a 10 foot pole. Their tanks are tiny, all interconnected, and the fish usually look to be in poor health. However the nearby privately owned shop has rows and rows of healthy individual tanks. I almoast never see diseased or dying fish in them, they're clean, well kept, and the staff knows what they're doing. In the end its a judgement call on your part.

 

[rdd1952]

Welcome to the forum and a big thumbs up for doing your research before buying fish.

1. I don't know the conversion either but those numbers will definitely give you the readings you want. Hopefully some one else can help with that.

2.

2. Yes, very true. Chlorine and Chloramine will evaporate from your tapwater usually in 24 hours

Chlorine will evaporate in about 24 hours but chloramine will not. It can only be removed with dechlorinator. Stress Coat is the brand I use.

3. None that I know of either. There are ammonia monitors (not terribly expensive but I don;t trust them) and pH meters (very expensive). Only takes 5 minutes to test with liquid kits.

4 & 5. Not familiar with that particular filter but I am running the Hydor inline heaters off the output of my Fluval filters and it works great.

6. Can't help since I'm in the US.

7. Definitely not mandatory but will help speed the cycle.

8. Unless you can find someone you trust, there isn't much way to know. Since, you are new to the hobby, I doubt you have any stores that you know the people there.

 

[simonbrown403]

As rdd1952 Welcome to the forum and a big thumbs up for doing your research before buying fish.

Your is GH23 KH 3-6 which means you have hard water, as for your PH if i had to guess i would say about PH 7.5/8.0? but don't quote me on that.
Here's a link to a good article on PH GH KH and the relationship.

Chlorine is a gas and will dissipate in 25 hours with an air stone, but Chloramine is Chlorine bonded to ammonia to keep hold in the water, you will need a declorinator, especially for the as it break down the bond between the two, so the Chlorine gas can escape and the ammonia then be broken down by the bacteria.

There are electronic test kits for PH and i think for KH/GH not sure about the rest but they are pricey, advanced pharmaceuticals master test kits are acurate and include PH KH KH nitrite and ammonia for £15 to $20 ideal for the money, i've personally had no problems with them.

I've had an electronic Ph tested which i found troublesome , the reading where a little wild, not to mention that that you have to calibrate them every two weeks with two different solutions, believe me the regent test kits are easyer.

Good luck and all the best with your aquarium

Simon

 

[moon]

Thanks all.

I've done some more research and grilled my friendly water chemist about his arcane figures...

My tap water is in theory...
pH 7.6 - 8.1
Alkalinity = 229 mg/L CaCO3 = 13 dKh
Hardness = 325 mg/L CaCO3 = 18.2 dH

These all appear quite high I've just ordered a testing kit so I can take my own readings.

What types of fish (and plants) will be happy in the above water?
Or will this water limit my options too much?
Is there a fancy-pants website somewhere where I can search for fish suited to a particular pH & hardness?
Should I look at mixing in RO water?

Cheers
Moon

 

[dwarfgourami]

Thanks all.

I've done some more research and grilled my friendly water chemist about his arcane figures...

My tap water is in theory...
pH 7.6 - 8.1
Alkalinity = 229 mg/L CaCO3 = 13 dKh
Hardness = 325 mg/L CaCO3 = 18.2 dH

These all appear quite high I've just ordered a testing kit so I can take my own readings.

What types of fish (and plants) will be happy in the above water?
Or will this water limit my options too much?
Is there a fancy-pants website somewhere where I can search for fish suited to a particular pH & hardness?
Should I look at mixing in RO water?

Cheers
Moon

I wouldn't worry about this. All of us in the Southeast of England are in the same situation, yet people are clearly able to keep a variety of fish. Certain things you may not be able to do without fiddling with the water stats, breeding discus for instance, but most of the tankbred species you will find in your local shops have been brought up in hard water and can cope perfectly well. My tap water is harder than yours (8.4) but my corys are spawning like there's no tomorrow.

Some fish positively like hard water. Malawi edit: cichlids for instance. And livebearers: platys, guppies, swordtails etc. It is probably a good idea to take your time before you introduce sensitive tetras (such as neons) to your tank, but then they should only go in a mature tank anyway.

edit: sorry about the slip- discus for cichlids; evidently still thinking about the discus; African cichlids like hard water; discus are South American and do not

 

[sinistral]

You just beat me to the conversion. One german degree of hardness = 17.9 mg/L.

I had the same questions when I was calling the water company here in Boston and nobody could tell me anything substantive. What I've discovered is as follows:

Some good news: Many fish can adapt to just about any water conditions. Unless you're dealing with tropical fish that absolutely require soft water, I'd suggest that you would do well with a wide array of tropical fish. Acclimating fish gradually over the course of 30 minutes to an hour usually is sufficient. It's likely that your local fish store keeps their fish in the same water too (so they are pre-acclimated), if that's reassuring-- you can always ask there whether they use tap water. With your hard water, you're probably also the envy of all those fishkeepers who love Malawi cichlids...

Another advantage of having your water is that it's got good buffering capacity against shifts in pH (due to your good alkalinity).

You may not have optimal conditions for things like breeding a wide array of fish, for example, but those are hurdles you can cross should your interests ever take you in that direction.

This brings me to another important point: management and maintenance of your aquarium is something you will have to do as long as you are in the hobby. When water conditions are the problem, 99% of the time it is because of poor tank maintenance (lack of regular water changes) and not because of water hardness. If you look through posts here, you'll never see anybody reporting that their fish died from high alkalinity-- it's almost always nitrogen toxicity. Therefore, it is advantageous to minimize the complexity of maintenance as much as possible. This minimization will do several things: 1. Save you money; 2. Make it easier to do water changes, thus making them less painful and more likely to do; 3. Extend the life of your fish, your hobby, and your wallet.

For these reasons, I would recommend any newbie to the hobby use their water straight out of the tap (using only dechlorinator/dechloraminator) and acclimate their fish well. Mixing RO water with tap is an expensive, tedious, and ultimately unnecessary (most of the time) process.

Finally, low-light plants are the way to go. You could browse through tropica, or just go with Java Moss, Java Fern and Anubias to start. These are slow-growing, low-light, non-CO2 requiring plants that would likely do well in a new set up.

Good luck, HTH~

EDIT: I see dwarfgourami beat me to the punch with a much more concise reply

 

[modernhamlet]

Sorry for going off topic, but...

sinistral,

I actually found boston's water stats. The water here is... how should I say it?... "wicked retahded".

Boston, Massachusetts municipal water:

Personal Test Results (Roslindale):
pH: 8.4
kH: 3
GH: <2
Nitrate: 0

Municipal statistics from the MWRA (Massachusetts Water Resources Authority):
pH: 9.3
kH: 2.2
GH: <1
Nitrate: 0

And it's chock full of chloramine. Make sure you use plenty of dechlorinator designed for chloramine.

http/www.mwra.com/

 

[Bloo]

Here is an extract of my first phone call to my water supplier....
<Me> Hello. I need some information on the chemistry of my water supply as I want to keep tropical fish.
<Water Co.> Sure. Let me bring up information on your area. What do you need to know?
<Me> I need the pH, General & Carbonate hardness and chemicals used to treat the water.
<Water Co.> What do you mean?
<Me> You know - Chlorine, Chloramine that sort of thing.
<Water Co.> Oh. Let me consult my team leader.
<Short pause>
<Water Co.> I 'm afraid we don't know anything about that here.
<Me> But your a water company! Don't you know what goes into the water you supply?
<Water Co.> Sorry.

After calling the head office I got through to a water chemist, but I am not sure what he told me actually means!
Moon

I take it this is Thames Water ?
If so, I'm a bit bemused by how hard it was to get this info.
I simply called them (main website no.) gave them my postcode and they said sure no prob it's in the post.

And voila a couple of days later I had it on my doorstep. The full report

So if you want a recent report, send me a pm with your address and I'll happily post you a copy of what I have

I must dash home now, but I'll reply to the rest of your post later tonight - you have the same water as I do

Ok, back again and here's a shot at the rest of your questions:
Total Hardness = 130 mg/l as Calcium (325 mg/l as Calcium Carbonate or 23 as degrees clarke)
Alkalinity = 260 - 290 (mean 279) mg/l as bicarbonate (HCO3)
Non Carbonate Hardness = 80 - 100 (mean 88) mg/l
1. Does the above tell me my GH, KH and/or pH !?
I'm not entirely sure I think you can work out your kH & gH from that but this is a fabulous article on gH, kH and pH which will tell you all about it so much better than I can! What I can tell you though, are why my own tapwater readings are - just taken a couple of days ago:

pH - 7.6 (has varied over time between 7.6 and 8.2)
kH - 12 (generally around 11 and 12)
gH - 19 (has varied over time between 17 and 19)

He also said that the water was treated with Chlorine in winter and Chloramine in summer. He advised that leaving the water stand in a bucket for a few days would allow even the Chloramine to dissipate.
2. Is this true? Is anything else required to prepare the tap water for use when adding water to the tank?
Just leaving the water to stand does not remove the chloramine and other heavy metals. You will need a water conditioner / dechlorinator. I use Stress Coat by API - see towards the bottom for link and product sheet.

Test kits
Messing about with liquid test kits seems so.... crude.
3. Is there any affordable electronic test device that does the key tests (GH, KH, pH, nitrate etc.)?
I can't tell you anything about electronic test kits as they are much more expensive. But I can tell you that I've found the API (Aquarium Pharmaceutical) range to be great. Very good value for money, easy to use and consistent results.

Filter & heater
I'm tempted by a Eheim 2126 Thermo.
4. Any downside to having the filter and heater combined?
If either packs up, you sit with 2 problems - not just one. You can't go wrong with Eheim though. Look at Living Seas for some great deals. But shop around as you might be able to get a better deal elsewhere.

5. Is the only difference between the normal and "LTD edition" the bundled media?
I think the "normal" comes without media and the Ltd. Editions comes all inclusive.

Suppliers
6. Any recommendations on shops in Central/East London to buy the fish & plants?
My best central London shop I can recommend is Wholesale Tropicals in Bethnal Green (5 minutes from Liverpool Street Station. It came second the PKF Fishkeeping Mag as retailer of the year (this year). I spend far too much money there !

Fishless cycling
The guides I've read recommend using bacteria from an existing tank to kick start the process.
7. Is a bacteria seed really neccesary for fishless cycling?
No, but it will help speed up the process greatly.

8. If so, how do I know that my supplier has clean/good bacteria in their tanks?
I doubt you'll find any that will sell you any of their filter material, but worth a try ringing around

Many thanks for reading all this. I look forward to more interactions with this fine community!
All the best and welcome to the forum ! By the way, look at my profile and it will tell give you a good idea of the combo's of fish I keep in this water (it's not 100% up to date).

Regards
Moon

 

[moon]

Thanks again everyone.

sinistral - sensible sounding advice. I'll definitely start slow & simple!

I take it this is Thames Water ?
If so, I'm a bit bemused by how hard it was to get this info.
I simply called them (main website no.) gave them my postcode and they said sure no prob it's in the post.

I called the 0845 number on my Thames Water bill, and was on the phone for ages before I gave up. It turns out my water supplier is actually Essex & Suffolk water (I live in Barking). All sorted now - the water chemist emailed pages of figures, and helped me revise my rusty chemistry to convert the mg/l HCO3 figure to it's fishy dH & dKh equivilent.

What I can tell you though, are why my own tapwater readings are - just taken a couple of days ago:
pH - 7.6 (has varied over time between 7.6 and 8.2)
kH - 12 (generally around 11 and 12)
gH - 19 (has varied over time between 17 and 19)

I'm reassured that these match what my water man told me - I'll have a good look at the type of fish you keep when looking for inspiration! Could you please tell me what plants you have in your 180L tank (which I assume is not on CO2)? What do you have at the bottom of this tank (gravel? sand?).....

Just leaving the water to stand does not remove the chloramine and other heavy metals. You will need a water conditioner / dechlorinator. I use Stress Coat by API - see towards the bottom for link and product sheet.

Do you do anything else with the tap water before adding it?

My best central London shop I can recommend is Wholesale Tropicals in Bethnal Green (5 minutes from Liverpool Street Station. It came second the PKF Fishkeeping Mag as retailer of the year (this year). I spend far too much money there !

I bought a copy of PKF yesterday! Bethnal Green is quite easy for me to get to and I'm looking forward to checking it out on Saturday.

PKF also had a freebie bottle of "Nutrafin Cycle" included (Contains 5,000,000,000,000 live bacteria!!). Is this sort of thing likely to help establish my fishless cycle in the absence of "real" bacteria from a working aquarium?

Cheers
Moon

 

[sinistral]

A bit of off-topic stuff:

Thanks for those stats MH I should have just asked you first. I'm in Bahston proper...I've discovered that after dechlorination and/or standing the pH tends to fall to around 7.8. It is ridiculously soft water, isn't it? I may give malawi cichlids a try later on out of interest despite the softness. I've been using the dechloraminator/dechlorinator for the past two years without problems

Back on topic...

Moon wrote:

PKF also had a freebie bottle of "Nutrafin Cycle" included (Contains 5,000,000,000,000 live bacteria!!). Is this sort of thing likely to help establish my fishless cycle in the absence of "real" bacteria from a working aquarium?

I'm very dubious of any product that supposedly contains live bacteria. For one thing, I don't think it's really even clear what bacteria are the ones responsible for denitrification (there's an article in this month's Aquarium Hobbyist or some such mag talking about different strains of nitrobacter/nitrospira/nitrosomonas growing in at different ammonia concentrations), so whatever product is used might not even contain the right strain of bacteria. Denitrifying bacteria exists everywhere and will go in provided the right conditions. IMO the only method right now that's been shown to help "jump-start" a cycle is either to clone a filter or to add surfaces (gravel, an ornament, etc) from an existing established aquarium.

On the other hand, I don't see that it could really hurt. Adding (for instance) dead or ineffective commercial bacterial starter most likely won't slow your cycling down. It all depends on if you believe in the product and have the money to spend to support your belief. IME I've never used a commercial product. Hope that's helpful~

 

[Annastasia]

PKF also had a freebie bottle of "Nutrafin Cycle" included (Contains 5,000,000,000,000 live bacteria!!). Is this sort of thing likely to help establish my fishless cycle in the absence of "real" bacteria from a working aquarium?

Well, Sini's advice is much more complex, but I'll throw in my little comment.

Basically these things only work if they have been refrigerated the whole time. The Live Bacteria usually can't survive the high temperatures during trucking, so they die. And most trucking companies don't bother to refrigerate a few bottles of fishy stuff. However, as Sini said, it can't hurt. I just wouldn't count on it to cycle your tank, or speed up your cycle.

 

[fatboybaby]

regarding wholesale tropicals - the advert says in huge letters retail only, which is why i've never bother going there. is this true or can anyone go in?

 

[Bloo]

regarding wholesale tropicals - the advert says in huge letters retail only, which is why i've never bother going there. is this true or can anyone go in?

Retail = for sale to public
Wholesale = for trade industry only

I know it's a bit misleading being called Wholesale Tropicals, but they used to only be wholsale
By far the safest to go there without your wallet or credit card