Urgent Advice Needed Please!

[TigerIssey]

Croft also do a training advice page on their website, gives you some does and don'ts.

http/www.croftonline.co.uk/sitepage/Trainingpage.html

This is good too

http/www.ddfl.org/behavior/crate-train.pdf

Yes overuse of crates can be very cruel, however used correctly can be invaluable, to you and your dog.

 

[Kiwigirl]

I would also be very wary of anyone who tells you you need to be "pack leader"

I guess this is directed at me, I'm not a person to be very wary of, I'm just a person with years of experience with dogs. Hi was bought up them all my life and have owned them all my life.

dogs aren't thick

I agree with you 100% infact they are very intelligent animals.

but the pack ranking theory is outdated and a bit daft.

Well I guess being 40 that makes me outdated but far from daft.

We do need to show our dogs clearly what we want

Once again agree with you 100% its called training. Your not going to achieve much if you don't know how.

For the record never used a crate or dog kennal in my life, never had the need to.

 

[TigerIssey]

For the record never used a crate or dog kennal in my life, never had the need to.

Crate training should not be considered as a training method if all else fails. I chose to crate train my dogs as pups for many reasons.

1 I believe in the safe haven a crate gives a dog. Somewhere familiar that can be taken with you for travelling.

2 When you take a crate trained dog to the vets and it has to stay, vets will thank you, it is far less stressfull on the dog if they are already familiar with crates. I have a ***** that sings and sings at the vets until she gets in the crate, only then does she settle down. She has many health problems and has had to stay at the vets 7 times. She is 6 yrs old, would have caused her much more stress if she wasn't crate trained.

3 I show staffords, at dog shows it is advisable to crate staffords due to the close proximity of benching, dogs would fight if you didn't.

4 I have stayed in hotels with my dogs, some are prepared to allow dogs in rooms if they are crated. Perfectly ok as the dog goes out with you in the daytime.

5 I crate my dogs in the car, I have a specially made barjo crate that fits the shape of my boot. I know if im in an accident and the boot or doors open, the dogs are entirely safe. My crate is double and has emergancy access from inside the car in case of a rear end smash.

Crates can be useful in other types of training, specialised training methods are available in books and leaflets however I have found that the advantages for me outweigh peoples general opinion of crates.

 

[Kiwigirl]

I agree with you crates are useful in many ways, housetraining is another good use for them.

I don't have a boot big enough for a crate in my car, but I have trained my bonnie to sit in the back seat of the car and use a dog safty harness.

She is very well trained and will stay on command and not move. She always investigated the cat cage when I first got her and slept in it of her own free will. She had no problems at the vets for her overnight stay when she was spayed as she went there for daily visits, got to know all the staff, sat on the scales everyday, and a quick visit into the holding area. And recieved treats from the staff. I have never had problems with her at the vets.

Everyones needs for equipment vary, and you meet the need of a crate. I'm note against them, I just don't have a need for one.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Wait, why can't they be spayed until 3 months after their first heat? It is best to spay dogs PRIOR to the first heat, or the risk of mammary cancer is dramatically increased. Not to mention the risk of unwanted pregnancy! If the dogs are not going to be used for breeding, there is really no benefit to not spaying them as soon as they are at an appropriate weight - and both certainly look large enough.

edit: Oops, sorry; just saw that you're having them spayed now. My bad.

 

[KathyM]

I would also be very wary of anyone who tells you you need to be "pack leader"

I guess this is directed at me, I'm not a person to be very wary of, I'm just a person with years of experience with dogs. Hi was bought up them all my life and have owned them all my life.

dogs aren't thick

I agree with you 100% infact they are very intelligent animals.

but the pack ranking theory is outdated and a bit daft.

Well I guess being 40 that makes me outdated but far from daft.

We do need to show our dogs clearly what we want

Once again agree with you 100% its called training. Your not going to achieve much if you don't know how.

For the record never used a crate or dog kennal in my life, never had the need to.

I'm sorry, you've got the wrong end of the stick, and if that's rom the way I've posted, I apologise. I was actually talking about Barkbusters, who have been contacted in this case. They follow a rather silly version of Jan Fennell's outdated practice of one method suiting all problems. Pack ranking isn't what it's cracked up to be - yes we need to be able to train and control our dogs, but I don't believe that's with the idea that a dog will see us as the "Alpha" dog in the "pack". Many trainers and behaviourists are leaving these old fashioned methods behind, as although they *can* work with *some* dogs, they are not believed to be a solid foundation for dog training any more.

I'm very sorry if I've offended you with that view, it was not my intention. I personally believed all the pack ranking tips when I sought out a behaviourist who blamed all of my previous dog's behaviour on them. I was told my dog's severe aggression to all animals was because he was uncomfortable in his "forced" role of "alpha" and that if I ate before him, walked through doors before him, etc etc (you know it all so no point listing *lol*), that he would have the "pressure" lifted from him and be a happier and therefore not aggressive dog. It did nothing for him whatsoever over the months we practiced it, in fact he got much worse and he had to be rehomed to somewhere that could focus on him and supervise him properly. After this I sought out information on these methods and learned that a lot of the theory is down to "If you don't win with this, you're not doing it enough/right/what-have-you", which in most cases is not true, and is just a big excuse for a massive failing in a theory.

Barkbusters and Jan Fennel are very much advocates of this theory, and when Barkbusters was mentionned (after my initial warning about them), I wanted to post why I felt that they were a bad idea. Barkbusters have an appalling reputation in behavioural work, I haven't heard a good word about them yet, but have heard many, many horror stories.

Hope that clears things up, and again I apologise if you felt it was aimed at you, as it wasn't.

 

[starrynightxxi]

in reference to the crates, i would like to add that it is advisable not to allow either dog in the other's crate. You also shouldn't let the cat in the crate. but keep in mind that as with anything else of the dogs' (toys, food, etc) they still have to know that you are in charge and are allowed to do as you please with(in) the crate.

 

[so-fishy!]

Over the last couple of days they have been fine. However, this morning they started again and I told them both off and muzzled them. All the vets in my area have said the same thing "can only spay 3 months after first season". That means it will be next year! Don't know if im going to cope with them being aggressive for 3 months! It is really frustrating that they only fight when im home (I work nights) and Im sure Dean doesn't believe me.

Another problem that is going to arise is at Christmas. My partners parents live in Weymouth and when we just had Holly she would come with us and stay. I dont think we can take them both because they have a cat (Frankie isn't good with cats) and the thing Im worried about most.....the grandchildren who are under 2 years old! I don't even want to imagine what would happen if they had a toy and Frankie and Holly wanted to play!

That means we will have to leave them at home and come back (80 miles) to check on them! Or just take Holly and leave enough food down for Frankie until the evening. God it's going to be a nightmare!!!!

 

[Kiwigirl]

KathyM Posted Today, 09:24 AM

Hi Kathy,

[I'm sorry, you've got the wrong end of the stick, and if that's rom the way I've posted, I apologise. I was actually talking about Barkbusters[/quote]

Yes it would appear I did get the wrong end of the stick, I should have read your post properly, No appology needed. No offence taken, but thankyou.

As I re-read my own posts, it would appear that I had actually put myself across wrong, I did mention "top dog" status to some degree, but I meant who is the master/masters. In the latest term, not so much the old term as I can clearly see what you meant. I agree with you there in that sense, I don't believe in me through the door first, dog last, or with their so called food claims. And what does work on one dog may not work on another.

As for the advise you have received about the aggression of your dog, is in my opinion rubbish.
I had the same problem as you with my Keeshond, always aggressive toward other dogs, he even tried to take on a german shepard at 5 months of age. I managed to turn this around by providing constant association with other puppies and adult dogs. When taking him for a walk, I made him sit back on toward the other dog. It took a year of doing this everyday until he settled down.

I know for a fact that a dog will obey commands from every member in the household as long as everyone is on the same page as to commands given.

On my current basis my bonnie will not listen to My partner mainly because he gives in to easily and does not follow through on a commands give the wrong ones.

I believe for a house dog that they should at least sit and wait until released when entering a door, If I have arms full of groceries I expect to get through the door without her in my way,me first. Other time she will go in first, especially when younge children need to get through a doorway with out being knocked over.

I also so feel that it is important for a dog to sit and wait for their food to be put in their bowl, so it is not Knocked out all over the place and shows good manners.

Anway I to can go on for ages.
Happy Days.

 

[KathyM]

Glad we got things cleared up Kiwigirl - seems like you're as fascinated in dog behaviour as I am, although I suspect you know a lot more than me

so-fishy - spaying isn't going to sort the aggression, so don't panic about that side of things just yet. I think we need to focus on finding you a more affordable yet respectable behaviourist, because you're really going to need professional help on this one I'm afraid. Have you been in touch with the APBC? I can't recommend the links I gave you before enough - I think we'll be able to find someone who can help you on The Refuge (the 2nd link I gave) as the people who work in training/behaviour are some of the most clued up people in that field I've ever "met". I really think if you go there someone will at least be able to put you in touch with some support in your area.

I could sit here and offer you practical advice on the behaviour, as I'm sure many other people with more experience than me could. We could all say the right thing for what your situation *sounds* like, but without meeting your dogs and assessing them, we could all be wrong and end up doing more harm than good. With the utmost of respect for those posting advice on how to "treat" this, so-fishy needs someone to come and assess them properly. Even the best dog behaviourist in the world wouldn't diagnose and "fix" a problem over an internet forum because it's dangerous, especially in these cases where aggression is the problem.

In the meantime, I think the safest thing to do is or you to muzzle them both when they're together and not tell them off, as to them it's just joining in the fight, they don't understand what you're angry about and it could end up with you getting inadvertantly hurt.

 

[so-fishy!]

Thanks

Surely, though by telling them a stern "NO" and having them stop fighting can't be a bad thing? Both dogs are intelligent enough to know whats right and wrong and I can tell this by when I return home and find that my phone is missing the number five! I only had to say in a stern voice "Who did this" and one or the other dogs will squirm on the floor like a guilty child! Also Frankie did have the plastic keypad stuck in her teeth, so in this case it was obvious who had done it!

Im no behaviourist, but my dogs are young and do behave like naughty children. Surely I can't be doing too much wrong if they are obiedient in other ways?

 

[KathyM]

Hi so-fishy

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you were doing anything "wrong". It's becoming more well known though that telling dogs off after the event is not productive as they don't remember what they did wrong and don't understand our language. Of course it's natural to say "No" and get het up if they're brawling, I just wanted to protect you from maybe getting in the middle of it, as all they will recognise is that you're angry like them, and often in fights this is seen to them as you joining in. I wouldn't want you getting bitten, and although I know you'll be saying "They wouldn't do that", it does happen when dogs are het up and in a fight - bite first, think later. Doesn't make them or you "bad".

I hope you find someone to help you with everything. Best of luck.

 

[Kiwigirl]

Surely, though by telling them a stern "NO" and having them stop fighting can't be a bad thing? Both dogs are intelligent enough to know whats right and wrong and I can tell this by when I return home and find that my phone is missing the number five! I only had to say in a stern voice "Who did this" and one or the other dogs will squirm on the floor like a guilty child! Also Frankie did have the plastic keypad stuck in her teeth, so in this case it was obvious who had done it!

Im no behaviourist, but my dogs are young and do behave like naughty children. Surely I can't be doing too much wrong if they are obiedient in other ways?

Coming home and finding chewed up cell phone etc, been there and done that.
They recognized you tone of voice in the above case, Know it's directed at them, they don't know what they did wrong.

Timing is a very important key. You must catch them red handed.

Muzzles on both great idea, means if things get out of hand, intervention carried out no injuries. And the dogs can't injure each other either.

Yes you can stop it, but only do it when things get really out of hand. And be consistant.

Also dogs play fighting can sound very aggresive sometimes or get out of hand.

When you have two dogs, and inexperienced the difference blur. Bang pot lids together to get their attention if you have to (startle affect).

The above are suggestions. It may work it may not.

Only seems to happen when you are at home, yes I agree, observation from an outside party is needed,
perhaps they can see something the housemembers can't.