Urgent Advice Needed Please!

[so-fishy!]

Im really upset because today my two dogs Frankie and Holly started to fight and they didn't stop until my dad seperated them and got bitten himself! Holly has a tear in her ear and bites on her nose. I went to the pet shop and bought a muzzle for Frankie while I called my vet for advise she said she thinks Holly has come into season and they were both full of hormones that they began to fight. They cannot be spayed until 3 months after their first season and Holly is yet to have her first!

So I called a behaviourist who told me I have the worst combination (two unneutered bitches) and that given the chance they will fight to the death! She said to keep them seperated and she could access them on Thursday, but this would cost £100 (money I don't have at the moment!) I have tried keeping Frankie outside and Holly in, but they are barking and growling through the glass! So I muzzled Frankie again and let them in and they have chilled for a bit (but for how long?)

The behaviourist said I should seriously consider rehoming Frankie if people are getting inured during their fights! Her previous owner said she would have her back if their were any problems. Gave her a call and she was horrified that I had called and pretty much said no way! Im now sat here in tears pulling my hair out because I don't know what to do! Feel so stupid and selfish that I could bring another dog into the house and not think any problems may arise. Frankie is such a loving, kind and intelligent dog, but I really believe she should be homed in an only dog household. She has never bitten anyone, I just think my dad was unlucky and a little bit silly to split up to fighting dogs with his hands!

any advise would be apprieciated!

 

[Bloo]

What breed of dog are we talking about here ?
How old are they ?
Are they siblings ?

 

[juliehainsworth]

I'm sorry to hear that they had been fighting. Is there anyway that you can keep them seperate whilst there is nobody around and just keep an eye on them when together and as soon as any growling occurs send out the one who is initiating it? Especially when they're in season?

 

[so-fishy!]

Sorry I forgot to mention what they are like. They are both collie x labs, 10 months old and full sisters. Have owned Holly since she was 8 weeks and rehomed Frankie a month ago. No major problems, apart from Frankie is very posessive over toys and food. So all toys have been removed and they are fed seperately. They have two meals a day on a good quality dry food "Husse" bit like Science plan. I walk them at least once (if not twice) a day for over an hour and play with them also. They are brilliant out walking and are never aggressive to ther dogs.

Today the fighting is so bad that they will not back off to my shouts. Apart from my dad physically removing frankie by the scruff of her neck (and getting bitten) they only way I got them to stop was with the hose pipe (spaying them with water). For the last 30 mins they have settled, but Frankie is still muzzled. I will have to take this off soon, but im worried what the consequences will be when they wake up.

 

[Bloo]

Ahh now I remember
They are both gorgeous and I'm sure with the correct behavioural help, they will both live peacefully & lovingly together. Frankie is obviously very young and insecure (being the new one and trying to establish a territory) and needs proper training and education. Why don't you ask your vet for a couple of other behaviourists numbers and get general advice from a couple. Or have a look around on the internet. Some might even be able to do initial phone consultation and advice over the phone - which is a lot lot cheaper.
It's early days yet, and I'm sure this could be entirely remedied.

Keep them apart as much as possible though until you know with professional help what to do.
Let us know how it goes.

 

[KathyM]

Two bitches together can be very difficult (especially sisters), and if they fall out, it often results in them not being able to live together. It *can* work in some cases, but it's the hardest combination to "fix" when things go wrong.

A behaviourist is a great idea and well worth the money - avoid chain businesses such as Barkbusters as they will ruin your chances - none of their behaviourists have to have any previous experience with dogs, and often have little or no training. I assume you got a referral through the vet, which is a good idea, but remember vets have no behavioural training whatsoever, so it's always best to ask to be put in touch with previous clients so you can hear their experiences and what they think of the behaviourist. Most decent behaviourists are also registered with the APBC (http/www.apbc.org.uk).

It's likely to be long term work if it works at all, never leaving them alone together, etc etc.

Wishing you the best of luck - but if you find things can't work out, or if you need doggy advice, I can't recommend the following message board enough. It's for rescues and rescuers (and all dog owners really), and they're a really friendly bunch. There's a few people who work in training and behaviour on there too:

http/www.rykat.org/forums/index.php?act=idx

 

[so-fishy!]

Thanks for the advise guys! I did call Barkbusters and they just said someone would call back and they didn't so not very impressed! From the behaviourist I spoke to, she has pretty much told me what I need to know and I don't want to pay her £100 for the same advise!

Everything is still quiet at the mo thank god!

 

[diademhill]

Get a crate - two would be better. Canine kennels or Croft make the safest ones & they aren't much dearer than the cheap, thin, gappy mesh, ones.
A wanted ad on your local freecycle could be worth trying.
If you were closer I could lend you a couple -I keep spares for this sort orf thing (I run a boarding kennel)
The girls will have to take turns being out of the crate until this season is over.
I agree, two unneutered bitches is a nasty mix but keep them apart until they get spayed. I would get another muzzle & have both wear one when out together with you.
Make the crates their beds but if one starts -into the crate she goes.

A lot of the franchise behaviourists are rip off merchants IME.

BTW I have a breed known for fighting & do breed rescue - These are much stubborner than collie typesbut you'd be amazed how often we get a ***** brought in because of fighting with a housemate.

I'll Pm you with my phone number

Sue

 

[TigerIssey]

The advice given by diademhill (sue)

Get a crate - two would be better. Canine kennels or Croft make the safest ones & they aren't much dearer than the cheap, thin, gappy mesh, ones.

is sound advice, if you get two crates, they can be used as each dogs time out space. Each will view their crate as her safe haven. These are great for more than one reason, your dog has its own space, you have somewhere to put the dogs if you cannot keep an eye on them (you know they are safe), the vets will thank you when they get a crate trained dog in for spaying (less stress on dogs and quieter for vets) the other reason is that many hotels will accept dogs in crates.

To help with the fighting, put the crates ideally next to each other, put each dog in the crate, leave them there with favourite bedding etc for probably half an hour. Let the most dominant dog have time with you first, swap them over, once they see each is having there time you may get some respite.

You may as sue said need to do this until both can be spayed, I have in the past had to do this for a lot longer, I also have renowned fighting breeds. However my problems went deeper. You may find that one will bring the other into season, if not I would be careful until the second ***** has had her first season. After this, you may find that the problem will resolve itself.

Once you feel more confident you can give the dogs supervised time together, get a pop bottle and fill it up to a quarter with small pebbles, if the dogs become too rough with each other, shake it at them with a very firm NO. The bottle is to get the dogs attention, it can work extremely well. If you have ever watched dog borstal, you will have seen them using one, they can be very useful training aids.

Just because the dogs have had one bad fight, it does not mean all is over, if you can and are prepared to put time in with each dog, you may well end up with two dogs that behave as you want them to.

Don't leave the dogs alone together at all while you are sorting this out, you may end up with a situation that can be avoided.

Hope this helped, any other problems, don't hesitate to ask, as you can see others have had this problem too, I got bit seperating two dogs, however, I would do it again tomorrow!!
I have also Pm'd my email address, don't hesitate to contact if necesary.

 

[KathyM]

I just wanted to add to my previous post - as much as neutering bitches is absolutely imperative for their health, it probably will not *cure* aggression. There are many who believe that spaying actually increases a bitches tendency (note tendency) to be aggressive - and although noone knows without meeting your dogs properly and working out what's going on, I would still advise that if you intend to keep them, you get help from a good behaviourist.

Crating them might help in the short term but it's not workable as a long term solution. You do need a professional and reputable behaviourist. Well meaning people on the internet can't sort this for you, even with tonnes of experience they've never met your dogs.

Wishing you the best of luck.

 

[Kiwigirl]

Sorry I forgot to mention what they are like. They are both collie x labs, 10 months old and full sisters. Have owned Holly since she was 8 weeks and rehomed Frankie a month ago. No major problems, apart from Frankie is very posessive over toys and food. So all toys have been removed and they are fed seperately. They have two meals a day on a good quality dry food "Husse" bit like Science plan. I walk them at least once (if not twice) a day for over an hour and play with them also. They are brilliant out walking and are never aggressive to ther dogs.

Today the fighting is so bad that they will not back off to my shouts. Apart from my dad physically removing frankie by the scruff of her neck (and getting bitten) they only way I got them to stop was with the hose pipe (spaying them with water). For the last 30 mins they have settled, but Frankie is still muzzled. I will have to take this off soon, but im worried what the consequences will be when they wake up.

Hi So-fishy

I have had many years experience with dogs, hopefully I can help a we bit.

They cannot be spayed until 3 months after their first heat.

All dogs male or female can in fact be spayed from 6 months of age, vets prefer not to spay a ***** in heat as it makes the job more difficult.

I come from Nelson, New Zealand. Vets over here prefer clients to have their dogs fixed soon as possible unless you intend to breed. Perhaps you may like to do a google search for halifax vet, they have a website your vet may like to consider checking it out.

Frankie is being very possesive of toys and food

Good move on feeding them apart from each other, wise decision.

The toy problem can be sorted out with patients and consistancy. All you need to do is teach the dogs the rules. They need to know what they are and not allowed to play with. I suggest you have toys for Frankie and toys for Hollie. Example, when Hollie was teething as a little pup and was cought chewing on your socks you would take the sock of her, tell her she is a naughty girl, give her a chew toy she is allowed, give instant praise. Before you knew it she would walk straight past your socks and go straight for her tennis ball. You can use this same method with the toys for both dogs.

Other issues you have and detected reading your posts.

Who is the boss ( leader of the pack), you? your father? or are the dogs competing?
Reason for my question is because puppies, and dogs regardless of age do not see you as a person they see you as a member of the pack, the first thing they will do is compete for heirachy.

It seems to me that Frankie is getting all the punishment, but where is Hollies. Both dogs have to be taught that fighting will not be tolerated in your house. Muzzle both dogs, not just both. When you see both dogs getting on well together praise both. (Get some treats to help).

One dog out the other in. Isolating a dog from the pack is a no, no.

Please don't think I'm getting at you, I'm only trying to help.

Can you please tell me what training schedule you have for your dogs and what problems you are having with basic training.

You have lovely dogs, placid nature as a rule. Getting them spayed does not make them more aggressive in fact it will knock them down a peg or two.

 

[Kiwigirl]

I'm new to this forum and my post did not go the way I expected it to.

Hi, So-fishy, please read my reply that is below your pic.

Please keep us posted as to your progress or any further help.

 

[so-fishy!]

Thank you everyone for such great advise!!!! Feel I owe you the £100 the behaviourist wanted out of me

Update on the last 24 hours:

I went to work at 7.00pm yesterday and my boyfriend Dean took over. As soon as he came in the dogs instantly became angelic again and when I returned home from work I was told that they didn't do a thing!! Bloody typical!

However, we still seperated them last night and Holly constantly whinned all night (hence why I am still in my pj's at 12.00pm!) They are both playing together today and I am keeping a watchful eye on them. So far they seem to be their useful happy selfs. I have a bottle with stones in which I have used before when frankie used to bark at our cats (this has totally resolved that problem).

We will be looking at some dog crates later today. One question though? Do they need to sleep in them at night, or are they used just to calm the situation? I can't see Holly being very quiet at night if she has to sleep in it.

From watching them play today I believe Holly to be the alpha dog. Frankie seems to try and ignore her and backs away from their blanket they are playing with at the moment. I also believe that they don't see me as "Top Dog"! Dean seems to have much more control of situations and he thinks this is because I only have a little girly voice which they see as no threat.

We are moving soon to a house which has a 90ft garden which I hope the dogs will enjoy aswell as regular walks. I was so upset yesterday that both of us realise that we cannot simply pass this problem onto a new owner and besides frankie is part of the family.

We have also decided to have both dogs spayed. I did want to have puppies with Holly, but we have agreed that we would rather have two well behaved dogs than one dead dog, or a house full of aggressive puppies!

Thank you again.

 

[TigerIssey]

Whether or not you want the dogs to sleep in the crates is up to you, personally, I use them for pups to sleep in until I can trust them, chewing etc. However having said that, as the dogs become used to their cages I have found that they really start to associate them with their space. My dog claws at the door to go and get in when he wants to. When you first get them, it will be like taking puppies home the first night, you know how they whinge, don't go to them, its attention seeking, once they realise this is whats happening, they will adapt pretty quick. To show you how attacehed they become, I have had a little work done in the living room and temporarily had to collapse the dogs crate, he is being a swine because of it.

 

[KathyM]

If you are considering crate training, there is a great and cheap booklet by Angela Stockdale called "Missing You". It's primarily a booklet on separation anxiety but has a very good section on how to crate train responsibly. Used without proper introduction, crates can be cruel, as can overuse and using them for punishment (there is no need to punish a dog).

If you're going to use a crate I would aim at only using them when you absolutely have no other option - eg. if they have to be left goether alone and you can't put them in separate rooms. They can be a very useful tool for dogs that have separation issues (which may or may not be relevant to you), but overuse in dogs that you can avoid it with will be bad in the long run energy level-wise and therefore naughtiness wise. It's very easy for us humans to become reliant on them, and the dog should never, ever associate them with punishment (ie. being put in the crate for being naughty).

I would also be very wary of anyone who tells you you need to be "pack leader" - dogs aren't thick and fully realise we're not another dog, and it's ust as silly as humanising animals, just the other way round. We do need to show our dogs clearly what we want, but the pack ranking theory is outdated and a bit daft.