Upgrading to larger tank...

[mcordelia]

also I think @Callisto405 made a really good recommendation about keeping old decor/substrate in the new tank for a while to help transfer the beneficial bacteria over to the new setup.

 

[663]

Its a bit more complicated, some fish need hard water (lots of minerals) and others need soft water (few minerals). And there is a huge range between water suppliers depending on their source water. So it makes sense to choose fish that are suited to your water.

Personally I change 75% of the water in each of my 4 tanks every week. I happen to think that the reason I have almost no experience of dealing with fish disease and illness has nothing to do with luck - so I will continue to do so.

I'm not embarrassed to say that during my decades of fish-keeping, I've yet to consider the preferred PH of the fish I buy. I will moving forward.

75% is huge by me. Do you pre-adjust water temp before you change? My tap PH is about 7.5. Armed with what I've learned from you guys, my fish about to move into a new world of health.

BTW, I find these exchanges to be very enjoyable and enlightening. I think part of my response is based on the fact that in between posts I'm playing Doom Eternal: The Ancient Gods.

 

[Essjay]

I don't use RO water. My tap water hardness is 5 dH so I don't need to use it to keep soft water fish. And my tap water nitrate is between 0 and 5 so I don't need it to remove nitrate either.


It's hardness we need to consider, not pH. Generally speaking, water is soft, hard or middling. Some soft water species and some hard water species are fine in middling water as well as soft or hard. Hardness is the amount of mainly calcium with some magnesium in the water.

Fish come from water, river or lake, with a certain hardness. Their bodies have evolved to live in that water.
Hard water has a lot of calcium. Hard water fish have evolved so that their bodies get rid of most of the calcium they take in with the water. Put them in soft water and they continue to get rid of it - but in soft water there is little calcium to replace it so they suffer from calcium depletion. This stresses the fish and they get sick more easily.
Soft water doesn't have much calcium so soft water fish have evolved to hang on to the small amount they take in with the water. Put them in hard water and they still hang onto calcium, and end up with calcium in their organs, particularly the kidneys. This shortens their life span.

 

[mcordelia]

@663, I agree, I have learned so much just in the short time I have been part of this forum. Thanks to folks like @essjay and countless others who take the time to explain things with actual scientific rationale, I feel like I can be a better fishkeeper.
And what a fantastic way to spend a Tuesday - video games and fish chatter, love it!

 

[Dragonswynter]

In my opinion and experience, probably.

You will definitely get a headstart. Whether or not your media will be sufficient to instantly handle a larger tank and possible bioload depends on many factors, but if it were me and we weren't talking about extremes in any direction, I'd go for it. I've done it with success several times and never lost a fish. Just watch your parameters and I think you'll be fine. But if you're going from say a 10g with 3 fish to a 55g with 20 fish, I'd probably wait it out. If you're going from a 10g to a 20g with the same bioload, I doubt you'd have any issues that a water change couldn't solve. You don't need to reuse your water, but definitely keep your filter and media. That's where the vast majority of your beneficial bacteria lives.

I'd definitely wait for more opinions, though. Lots of far more knowledgeable folks on here than me.

Thanks so much! I'm not planning on adding any other fish right away. I want them to get acclimated and used to the new tank before I stress them any further by adding new fish. I figure the tank switch will be enough stress for the time being.

 

[Dragonswynter]

I thought I'd share our experience .... we upgraded from a 200L to a 430L tank with Filament Barbs (along with their babies transferred from a nursery tank), Flying Foxes, Minnows and Rainbow Shiners.

Following advice from our local aquarium shop, we kept every drop of water we could from our 200L tank and nursery tank. There were buckets, trugs and plastic containers of water all over the place! We were adding gravel, whilst also kept the original lot, but gave it a rinse. We also kept the original filter that had been cleaned about two weeks beforehand and installed a new filter at the same time.

This way, we were able to add our existing fish into the new tank the same day, but waited two weeks before adding in any further fish. We knew we were on the right track the day after the move when our male Filament Barb was chasing the ladies (he, and his babies, were the reason we upgraded in the first place!).

Thank you! I was thinking it would be a good idea to keep the water, even before I read about it online. Your experience makes me more convinced that it would in fact be a good idea.

 

[Dragonswynter]

Yup, you'll have a big jump on a new tank cycle. Hopefully, the worst you'll have is a bit of haziness as your transported bacteria will need time adjust. If the adjustment period symptom's start to freak you out, do a mild water change and test. Good luck to you and your wet people, Dragon.

Thank you! I can deal with a bit of haze for a couple of days. Just so long as my testing is a-ok!

 

[Dragonswynter]

No need to move the water. Bacteria lives on surfaces and not in the water. When I did this I set up the new tank with fresh water and got it up to temp and planted. Then on moving day I simply transferred the fish and filter at the same time. Keep an eye on things for a few days because you do lose any bacteria living on the substrate but it will catch up very quickly.

Thank you! I figured I would lose some of my good bacteria, hoping it wouldn't be much though.

 

[Dragonswynter]

Stable water, meaning water that's been exposed and equalized, is always a good thing to toss into a new tank. Doing so isn't critical though. As for cycling bacteria not living in the water, it lives wherever it wants until reaching the level needed to handle the biological load on the tank. After all, these critters don't walk to the walls of a new tank.

Thank you! I'm glad to know it's not critical to add the existing tank water. I will definitely keep that in mind for any future endeavors.

 

[Dragonswynter]

The bacteria live in biofilm wherever that exists - on surface everywhere in the tank but there's no biofilm floating in the water.


If regular large water changes are done, there is only a slight difference between tap water and tank water so using all tap water isn't a problem. But if large weekly water changes haven't been done and tank water is significantly different from tap water (old tank syndrome) then it does make sense to transfer tank water.

Thank you! I don't generally do large water changes, unless really necessary. I try to let the tank work it out as much as possible. I do keep a pretty close eye on my parameters during that period though, just to be safe. What you are saying about the water changes makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Dragonswynter]

I agree, but bacteria has to have a form of conveyance that gets it to that delicious biofilm. My point is that healthy tank water isn't devoid of cycling bacteria. In PC liquid-cooling there's an interesting phrase: "Life will find a way." This truism isn't always correct, but close enough. In this case, it means bacteria will get to where it wants/needs to go. I've had the pleasure recently of watching the process. It started with a slight haze in the water and tiny spikes in all non-ammonia related parameters. My new filter has started to grow the colonies' it needs to have on-hand to replace its predecessor. BTW, my fish weren't harmed by this process due to having a cycled filter inline.

Please explain further. Does the tap water need to be treated to remove chlorine and chloramine? Of course this is a potentially stupid question, but I need to make sure what you're saying. You mention a "large weekly water change." What percentage of tank volume should that be?

Thank you! I love to watch nature at work! It's just so fascinating to me, all of the intricacies and nuances. Love to watch life find a way, even the little guys like the bacteria, they are all important to our world.
I am of the thinking that anything over say 40% would equal a large water change. I always use a dechlor treatment on my tap water, even for small amounts. Our home is way too small with 3 cats that stay inside, another 4 (strays that adopted us) that go in and out at will, and a German Shepherd/Blue Heeler mix dog inside. It was a small house before all of the critters, lol! There's no way I could set out buckets of tap water and wait a couple of days for them to gas off. It's taking a bit of ingenuity to make room for the new 55 & stand!

 

[Dragonswynter]

Are you asking about old tank syndrome? OTS occurs when the tank water parameters (not the commonly measured ones) start to drift away from the composition of the water that comes out of the tap. Basically, your tap water has a certain amount of minerals and other gobbledygook in it that results in what the pH and hardness etc is. If you change 50% of your tank water weekly, then it's likely that your tank parameters will stay pretty close to what your native tap water is, since you refresh the tank with the source water on a frequent basis.

On the other hand, if you only do 20% water changes every month, then it's likely that some minerals get used up, others increase, and the ph and nitrate amounts change compared to your normal tap water. If you then go ahead and do a 50% water change all of a sudden, you can shock your fish because the new water will be really different than the water you just took out of the tank was.

Did I answer the question, or did I totally misinterpret what you were saying?

Thank you! Totally makes sense that it could shock the fish if the parameters are so different.

 

[Dragonswynter]

Yes they are - but not the chlorine, that kills fish (and bacteria). Its a bit more complicated, some fish need hard water (lots of minerals) and others need soft water (few minerals). And there is a huge range between water suppliers depending on their source water. So it makes sense to choose fish that are suited to your water.

Personally I change 75% of the water in each of my 4 tanks every week. I happen to think that the reason I have almost no experience of dealing with fish disease and illness has nothing to do with luck - so I will continue to do so.

Wow, that seems like A LOT of work, depending on tank sizes. Even if they are small. I have to say, the fact you've had hardly any disease or illness issues is intriguing. I haven't had a whole lot myself, and I only do small changes every week or two. And really, most of that is just for cleaning up the gravel a bit, and replacing water evap.

 

[Dragonswynter]

Thank you! Wonderful suggestion of keeping decor and some substrate for a couple of weeks! I will definitely do so. And after the couple of weeks, I can change the plastic plants and decor out a little at a time. And some point on down the line, I will add a couple of fish, too. ..... I'm not really the most patient person, so this will be a good exercise in patience for me.

 

[Dragonswynter]

you don't have to have a RO filter to remove chlorine/chloramine. I am planning on getting this under-sink filter: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Aquasan...aucet-in-Brushed-Nickel-THD-5300-55/301782806 it removes chlorine and chloramine, many pharmaceuticals, and also has a prefilter to reduce TDS slightly. It doesn't waste as much water as RO units do, so depending on the cost of water for you, the math may make this type of filter (replacing cartridges) cheaper than paying for the water than goes down the drain with an RO unit.

Regarding convenience of water changes, I guess it depends on your definition. The most convenient way of doing a water change is to have a python or similar system hooked up to your tap, pre-treat the entire aquarium with chlorine remover, and then run the water directly from the tap into the tank. There are various opinions on whether that is the best for the fish, since they get a higher dose of dechlorinator, and may be exposed to chlorine briefly before the dechlorinator takes effect.

The next most convenient way to do a water change is to use either an in-line filter from your faucet or a small holding vessel you run water into "real-time" from your filter that you then pump or gravity feed into your aquarium. In this case, you don't need to pre-treat your water at all (Assuming your filter removes chlorine), but you do have the hassle of figuring out how to get the water into the tank, since often the water pressure after the filter is not enough to get it all the way to the tank.

Third most convenient is to prepare your water in holding containers ahead of time. Some folks even have heaters in their holding containers so that they can temperature-match with the tank. The benefit of this method is that after sitting for 24h, the water parameters in the "new" water have stabilized (co2 dissolved has off-gassed etc), so you can test for the parameters of the new water and compare to the old water, and if necessary, wait another day before starting your water change if you need to add anything (like peat, lime rock, etc) to adjust the hardness or pH.

All in all, going back to what @essjay said, it really depends on what kinds of fish you keep and how well their water requirements match the water coming out of your tap. if you keep sensitive species that don't match your native water well, then you are almost by default stuck following approach three, but if your fish are more hardy and better suited to your native water source then approach 1 or 2 may work just as well.

Thanks! I do have and use a python for my large water changes, or for a new set up. I have a smaller gravel vac I use for the small changes, and just use a tote for taking away the old water. I always add my water treatment directly to the new water in my exclusive fish bucket, and swish the water around for a minute or three before dumping it into the tank. So far it's been working for me.