Update On My Cycle!

As far as I know, you are completely cycled when ammo and nitrites are 0, and you have some nitrates, no more than bout 50 I think but depends on your tap water. When yoour levels show this, if yopu have fishless cycled, you add fish! The fish then produce the ammonia to keep the cycle going.
 
Careful folks! When you get two newbies asking cycling questions in the same thread, everybody needs to keep reminding each other whether its a "fish-in" or a "fishless" cycle that is being discussed.

I think tibby is hoping she is near the end of a fish-in cycling process, whereas I can't tell which type Dasanii is asking about but it sounds like "fishless" questions.

The official "goal" of a fishless cycle is reached when the filter can take 4ppm ammonia and process it down to 0ppm within 10 to 12 hours -and- can take, say, 4-5ppm of nitrite (NO2) and also bring -it- down to 0ppm in the same time period. Once you reach that goal, it is ideal to continue for a week or so (feeding in 4ppm ammonia twice a day to keep it going) and taking measurements to watch for unexpected spikes (usually in nitrite) and to verify this correct funtioning of the bio-filter. Of course, by this point most people are -way- too impatient to do this, but this is indeed the ideal time-line since the signs you are trying to read with your water tests can sometimes fool you.

A "fish-in" "endpoint" is more difficult to determine IMO. You have been busy doing frequent water changes to get ammonia and nitrite down to zero but now you would like to declare that your filter is accomplishing the same thing. Essentially you have to ease up on the water changes and notice that ammonia and nitrite are not coming back up as fast, and then not at all. If nitrites are not coming back up but nitrates are creeping up that is a good sign I think.

Hope this helps. Maybe some more experienced can add to that fish-in paragraph! ~~waterdrop~~
ps. sorry if I'm off-base here, just thinking of different newbies may find something in this
 
Thanks waterdrop. We are in a similar position in a fish in cycle - bad advice from LFS saying using filter start would work fine.
We have been doing 40 % water changes as our ammonia has been 0.1 - 0.4, nitrite 0.05. At what point do we reduce or stop the water changes - we don't wantto lose any more fish (lost 2 corys ,have 8 remaining fish) but we also want to know if filter doing its thing.
Another LFS said 40 % water change too much and we should stop water changes altogether for a week at least...surely we could kill more fish if we do this.
We are being so stingy with our feeding the fish are fighting at mealtimes !
We would be grateful to know at what point we know when a fish in cycle has nearly cycled.(now 3 and half weeks of fish poisoning... :no: )
 
Thanks waterdrop. We are in a similar position in a fish in cycle - bad advice from LFS saying using filter start would work fine.
We have been doing 40 % water changes as our ammonia has been 0.1 - 0.4, nitrite 0.05. At what point do we reduce or stop the water changes - we don't wantto lose any more fish (lost 2 corys ,have 8 remaining fish) but we also want to know if filter doing its thing.
Another LFS said 40 % water change too much and we should stop water changes altogether for a week at least...surely we could kill more fish if we do this.
We are being so stingy with our feeding the fish are fighting at mealtimes !
We would be grateful to know at what point we know when a fish in cycle has nearly cycled.(now 3 and half weeks of fish poisoning... :no: )
must run but will try to write more later...
But, you are doing the right thing. That is why everyone here tries so hard to promote fishless cycling, fish-in cycling is so long and hard! As long as you are getting readings of ammonia and nitrite, you need to keep doing water changes. Use liquid-based tests of course. Be polite when you go to LFS, but do not carry away advice until after you are very experienced, years from now. Think of LFS as a place you go in to get physical things you must have, not a place to get much information - that can be had here in the forum and on the web and in books.

Very good the fish are hungry, don't feed too much.. keep it that way! Keep doing those water changes and plenty of testing. You will get the feel when the filter is, finally, helping you - you will test and keep finding zeros for amm & no2!

~~waterdrop~~
 
I agree with waterdrop. KEEP DOING WATER CHANGES! I was doing 2 x 50% a day at one point, just to keep my fish as comfortable as possible. I have had my fish since early February, and my cycle is only coming to an end now..... it has been a nightmare! The whole tank got ich and the meds set the filter right back.... My tank is still showing zero ammo and nitrite tonight, woo! Still waiting on those elusive nitrates though..........
 
thank you tibby, it is very important for newbies to be able to hear that these things are for real, both what it is like when going down the wrong path and also that the help beginners are receiving really works --- I've had a number of things work exactly like the experienced members here at TFF said they would and it has been extremely reassuring!

(as an aside, web forums have plenty of faults to deal with but imo they are a really promising new way of learning and exchanging info, a real compliment to google and wikipedia, don't you think?)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Can't wait to buy a bigger tank and do a fishless cycle.... it will be sooo much less stressful!

You won't have to Tibby. All future tanks can be cloned from the existing established filter.
Hey BTT, good opportunity for you to expand on your favorite ways to clone from an existing filter. Usually queries for this come in the midst of other questions and there seem to be a number of ways recommended by members - I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts!

Cloning can take several forms and to advise on the best way to do it without having full details of the situation can be dangerous. For example, some people ask how to keep their existing tank running whilst cloning the filter for an additional set-up. Others have just bought a new tank and want to transfer everything from the old tank to the new (the main difference i'm trying to portray here is whether the existing tank will continue to run). Other people will have a tank already with fish in which is suffering ammonia spikes and they want to clone from another filter to fix things etc etc.

The main difference as i stated above is whether the old tank is to continue running in addition to the new tank, or to be stripped down to be replaced with the new tank. I shall split my post into 2 sections on this basis.

Cloning an additional filter

There are several ways to do this. I shall address some of them here.

Really? I thought I had to fishless cycle but with some filter media to speed it up! Obviously I haven't read up properly... well i will be asking plenty of questions when the time comes!

This is the first way, Tibby. If you have mature media and want to perform a fishless cycle so you can fully stock your tank all at once, this is a good way to go. Fishless cycle as normal, but the mature media will speed up the process somewhat because you are starting with an established bacteria colony (maybe smaller than what you need, but it is there) rather than starting with no bacteria at all.

Obviously this isn't an option if the new tank is already stocked with fish as i mentioned above.

The next method is to use a piece of mature media and skip cycling altogether. I recently set up a tank for a friend using this method. If you have an established tank that houses for example, 9 guppies, and you take 1/3 of the mature media to seed a new filter, that new filter will immediately be able to house 3 guppies (9 guppies x 1/3). Note that you could not fully stock the tank at this point (unless full stock is equivalent to 3 guppies). If you require to fully stock the tank here, the fishless cycling method above must be undertaken. The mature tank will obviously then be short of bacteria to cope with its bio-load, but as these bacteria will double in around 24hrs, a small spike may occur but will be dealt with by the filter reasonably quickly. In this case, both tanks should be monitored closely for ammonia and nitrite spikes for several days after the transition. If any spikes do occur, counter with large water changes as usual. Often no spikes will be detectable and the transition apparently seemless.

Another method is to set up the new tank with filter and start it running, then take some established media from the other filter and squeeze it into the new filter but not actually moving the media across, effectively squeezing bacteria out of the old media and into the new filter. Although this method can work, it seems to be very unreliable to me and i don't see any benefit of of using this method over just plain moving some established media across to the new filter.

The last method i will discuss here is to run the new filter alongside the old filter on an established tank in order to colonise the new filter with the appropriate bacteria. Again, this method works, but it is taking say, 4 weeks to accomplish what moving some media across would achieve immediately.

The last two methods i describe can be useful if the 2 filters have incompatible media so it is not possible to just move some media over.

Cloning a replacement filter

Again there are several ways to do this, but only one which really need be considered. Take all the media out of the old filter and put it in the new filter. At the same time, move all the fish to the new tank. Simple!! Obviously this wouldn't work if the old tank is to be kept running. This is why it is important to distinguish.

Hope this helps someone and may i re-iterate that each set of circumstances is different and if you are going to clone a filter and you're not sure what you're doing, i'd ask on here for advice specific to your set-up.

Cheers :good:

BTT
 
i cba to start a new thread, but does the filter need to be switched on for the tank to cycle? thanks
 
i cba to start a new thread, but does the filter need to be switched on for the tank to cycle? thanks

Tanks can cycle without a filter but it is not recommended for most set-ups. If you do have a filter, i would definitely switch it on or it wont help with the cycle at all.
 
If you knew what tank you were going to get and get some appropriate filter sponges and just put them in your existing tank next to the filter or air stone, would they colonise over a few weeks. You could then put them in your new tank when you eventually got it.
Would this work??
 
Can't wait to buy a bigger tank and do a fishless cycle.... it will be sooo much less stressful!

You won't have to Tibby. All future tanks can be cloned from the existing established filter.
Hey BTT, good opportunity for you to expand on your favorite ways to clone from an existing filter. Usually queries for this come in the midst of other questions and there seem to be a number of ways recommended by members - I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts!

Cloning can take several forms and to advise on the best way to do it without having full details of the situation can be dangerous. For example, some people ask how to keep their existing tank running whilst cloning the filter for an additional set-up. Others have just bought a new tank and want to transfer everything from the old tank to the new (the main difference i'm trying to portray here is whether the existing tank will continue to run). Other people will have a tank already with fish in which is suffering ammonia spikes and they want to clone from another filter to fix things etc etc.

The main difference as i stated above is whether the old tank is to continue running in addition to the new tank, or to be stripped down to be replaced with the new tank. I shall split my post into 2 sections on this basis.

Cloning an additional filter

There are several ways to do this. I shall address some of them here.

Really? I thought I had to fishless cycle but with some filter media to speed it up! Obviously I haven't read up properly... well i will be asking plenty of questions when the time comes!

This is the first way, Tibby. If you have mature media and want to perform a fishless cycle so you can fully stock your tank all at once, this is a good way to go. Fishless cycle as normal, but the mature media will speed up the process somewhat because you are starting with an established bacteria colony (maybe smaller than what you need, but it is there) rather than starting with no bacteria at all.

Obviously this isn't an option if the new tank is already stocked with fish as i mentioned above.

The next method is to use a piece of mature media and skip cycling altogether. I recently set up a tank for a friend using this method. If you have an established tank that houses for example, 9 guppies, and you take 1/3 of the mature media to seed a new filter, that new filter will immediately be able to house 3 guppies (9 guppies x 1/3). Note that you could not fully stock the tank at this point (unless full stock is equivalent to 3 guppies). If you require to fully stock the tank here, the fishless cycling method above must be undertaken. The mature tank will obviously then be short of bacteria to cope with its bio-load, but as these bacteria will double in around 24hrs, a small spike may occur but will be dealt with by the filter reasonably quickly. In this case, both tanks should be monitored closely for ammonia and nitrite spikes for several days after the transition. If any spikes do occur, counter with large water changes as usual. Often no spikes will be detectable and the transition apparently seemless.

Another method is to set up the new tank with filter and start it running, then take some established media from the other filter and squeeze it into the new filter but not actually moving the media across, effectively squeezing bacteria out of the old media and into the new filter. Although this method can work, it seems to be very unreliable to me and i don't see any benefit of of using this method over just plain moving some established media across to the new filter.

The last method i will discuss here is to run the new filter alongside the old filter on an established tank in order to colonise the new filter with the appropriate bacteria. Again, this method works, but it is taking say, 4 weeks to accomplish what moving some media across would achieve immediately.

The last two methods i describe can be useful if the 2 filters have incompatible media so it is not possible to just move some media over.

Cloning a replacement filter

Again there are several ways to do this, but only one which really need be considered. Take all the media out of the old filter and put it in the new filter. At the same time, move all the fish to the new tank. Simple!! Obviously this wouldn't work if the old tank is to be kept running. This is why it is important to distinguish.

Hope this helps someone and may i re-iterate that each set of circumstances is different and if you are going to clone a filter and you're not sure what you're doing, i'd ask on here for advice specific to your set-up.

Cheers :good:

BTT
Excellent bit of hard work - many thanks for taking me up on the query! ~~waterdrop~~
 
Todays update - levels still at zero, and no sign of nitrate! However, at least I haven't had to waterchange since Sunday, and my hands are resembling skin and not tissue paper!
 
My stats haven't changed in 6 days! No ammo or nitrite, and no nitrate either! Am I cycled? I thought I needed nitrate?
 
Anyone? Am I cycled? i ahven't needed to water change for a week now, should I do a small change today and a bit of a gravel vac?
 
Anyone? Am I cycled? i ahven't needed to water change for a week now, should I do a small change today and a bit of a gravel vac?
tibby, it certainly sounds to me like you have finally finished your fish-in cycle, you've been getting good readings for a nice little spell now. I wouldn't like to be the one to say for sure though as I'm probably too inexperienced, so maybe one of the long-timers will come along and say what criteria they use to be confident of the end of a fish-in cycle, in case they are more conservative before declaring victory!

As for water changes, I'm squarely in the camp that thinks regular water changes are great. And, imo, a habit of some regular time on your day off is a great habit. If you are unlucky and your tap has high nitrates, you might need much smaller, more frequent changes. But if your tap has very low or zero readings you can consider more normal percentages. I would say that 25% change once per week is a pretty common one I've seen in my reading here.

~~waterdrop~~
 

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