Unidentified source of scratching (currently treating)

[BetaGrumm]

@Byron VERY interesting.
Ok. I want to try this out. I think my perspective has been skewed by my experience with our water softener throwing off EVERYTHING in our water. It really made a mess out of it.
0 GH, 20+ KH, Ph crazy high with no way to bring it down other than adding an acid buffer. and lots of it. I didn't like that process at all.
So now that I'm working with RO/DI water, I'm very interested to try this out and understand it a little better.
I really appreciate you expounding on this. Very helpful.

 

[BetaGrumm]

Actually, one thing I have been working, and just about got the ratio right, is mixing just enough tap water and ro/di water to get exactly the PH I want. I nailed it last time and it was stable (strangely enough). I didn't have to use a regulator at all. I still had to supplement GH though as it's still 0 by default.

 

[Byron]

Actually, one thing I have been working, and just about got the ratio right, is mixing just enough tap water and ro/di water to get exactly the PH I want. I nailed it last time and it was stable (strangely enough). I didn't have to use a regulator at all. I still had to supplement GH though as it's still 0 by default.

You mention a water softener...in general, never use water that has gone through a softener for fish. Some may be safe, many are not beecause of what they add to lessen the "hard" minerals.

You really do not need to add anything to straight RO water if you only have soft water fish (everything mentioned here except the guppies). That sounds so much simpler to me.

 

[BetaGrumm]

@Byron
Agreed. Definitely going to try your suggestion.

 

[BetaGrumm]

@Byron
So I did a 50% water change last night and tried out your suggestion.
WOW!
That was the slickest thing I've ever seen.
In my 10 years in this hobby, that might have been the best piece of advice I've ever read/heard.
My understanding of how to go about PH correction was definitely off.
I'm amazed by this.
In all my reading and research over the years I have never gotten the impression that this was this easy.
I started raving about it to my wife. I'm sure she thinks I've spent a little too much time staring at the fish tank.

15 gallons ro/di water, and just a GH addative. Nothing else.
GH was brought up to 10 dGH (accidentally overshot my mark. I was shooting for 8 dGH)
PH was 6.8
KH was 9 dKH
All naturally.

One of the biggest things I learned in this is just how much mineral content is being precipitated out from the regulator.
I know it says on the bottle that it does this, but I had no idea just how much. I had never tested it.
After applying my mineral supplement, I realized I was getting twice the resulting GH as compared with using the regulator.
That means it was precipitating 50% of my mineral content out of my water.
50%!
That's insane.
Safe to say I'm done with the regulator.

Thank you for this.

Back to the flashing,
I still observed some scratching last night prior to the water change.
I debated ending the parasite treatment as I'm not convinced it parasites, and seeing how the new water changes affect this behavior of the next week or two.
I'm curious if it was the salt in the water (which I've ceased adding) or some other water condition.
In the end I decided to continue the treatment and finish it out. Just change one thing at a time.
That way I can fairly safely rule out parasites unless I actually see something confirming it and pursue other options if the scratching continues.

I'll update this thread as the weeks progress.

 

[BetaGrumm]

Updates and new development:

We have fin rot.

Last night after feeding I noticed a split in the dorsal fin of the largest (the male) White Skirt Tetra. He has beautiful, long, flowey fins and while I immediately had that sinking sensation that I knew what this was, I instead hoped that maybe it was just rough eating activity and accidental damage, nothing more.
This morning I noticed a second smaller split in his anal fin.
Not good.
After closely inspecting the rest of the stock, I noticed a small split in the tail fin of the loach.
I just got home from work this evening and that split is progressing.
I have not observed any unusual aggression or fin striking/nipping, so almost without a doubt we're dealing with fin rot.
We'll come back this in a minute.

Other things to note since my last post (about a week ago):
The entire behavior of the stock changed slightly after altering the way I do water changes.
My water change routine is now as follows:
- Test water parameters and conditions
- Start a lesser amount of RO water heating on the stove.
- Drain 15 gallons (50%) of aquarium water and dispose
- Add heated RO water to new RO water and verify temp is 78-80 (Temp of tank)
- Mix 15 gallons (7 gallons at a time as I only have a 7 gallon buket) with Seachem Equillibrium to bring GH up to 8-10 (After reviewing each fish's gh ranges, this number fits all of them, though it's on the low end for the guppy)
- Add to aquarium
- Retest water

No other additives/salts.
What I've noticed is the tank hasn't seemed as "Comfortable" since.
I think you know what I mean when you look at your tank and the inhabitants just exhibit comfort and health. It's a beautiful thing.
It hasn't quite been that way, though I haven't been able to tell just why.
One thing of note is the gourami. Ever since the WC changes, he has been spending a decent amount of time rubbing his nose up against the front glass of the aquarium with mild glass surfing.
This has always been a stress behavior in my experience and is definitely unusual for him.
It's not constant. He eats fine and right now he's looking very normal as he looks for food in the java moss.
At any rate, there have just been a lot of subtle cues that things are out of wack even more than before.

And that brings us back to the fin rot.
At this point I would like to do a few things:
1. Today is water change day so ... that.
2. I've noticed my KH is dropping from 9 to 1 between water changes (every few days). This combined with the fact that my nitrates tend to creep up if I don't do 3 water changes a week tells me I'm producing a lot of acids from the bioload.
I would like to add a small amount of crushed coral to my filter as a buffer to prevent a pH crash. Because of the heavy bioload, I'm afraid that if I hit 0 KH the ph is going to drop like a rock.
3. I would like to stop the parasite treatment. It has been two weeks since I started and while the initial scratching was eliminated, the loach has continued to mildly scratch (every few days) and I'm afraid it's just making things worse.
ESPECIALLY since Paraguard is supposed to treat fungal and bacterial infections, and I"m seeing fin rot... that just isn't making sense.
But I want to make sure that's actually a good idea before I do it.
On one hand I want to make sure any parasite threat is gone.
On the other hand, I know the meds are just stressing everyone out and I want to remove as many stressors as possible especially if they aren't doing anything of benefit.

So I wanted to come and get thoughts and advice before I do anything.
I've been reading these forums almost non stop since I first posted, and wow, have I learned some things.
You guys are the best.
I look forward to sharing this hobby with you all, learning even more in the future.
Thanks,
Micah

 

[BetaGrumm]

Sure enough, I just ran a full battery of water tests and the PH is fluctuating.

Test results:
pH: 7.8
GH: 8 dGH
KH: 1 dKH
NH3: 0 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 5 ppm

I tested it last night and the PH was 6.8 pushing 7. That means the tank has fluctuated one whole point in 24 hours.
What surprises me, is that it went up! I expected it to go down. (Become more acidic)

The KH is much much lower than it used to be when I was mixing tap water (from the softener) and using the regulator.
This is why I would like to add the crushed coral.

 

[BetaGrumm]

Post water change results are pretty much the same:
pH: 7.4
GH: 10 dGH
KH: 1 dKH
NH3: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: barely readable

Interesting note: I have no idea why I was getting 9 dKH on the change water before. Today I barely got 1dKH. There was just nothing in the RO water.
It is from a local grocery and they are simply filtering municipal tap water. So the KH is probably fluctuating on the tap water end prior to reverse osmosis.

Regardless. I guess if I continue with @Byron's philosophy, then eventually this will stabilize out at it's natural ph for the system.
I guess I'm down to wait it out and see what we get and who survives it.

I did decide to pull the medication. It's been in there long enough and I don't see any reason to continue.
I never did positively diagnose parasites and I need a stable tank.

I know for a fact I need to cut back the feeding and get this nitrates nonsense under control. (I'm tired of all these water changes)
Maybe I'm over reacting about the fin rot as well, maybe it's just stress from all the meds and water changes.
If there is a disease then I need it to make itself ultra visible.

While I was changing water, the guppy had the audacity to look my in the eyes, hover over the substrate... and then scratch.
He's mocking me...

 

[Byron]

Can you post a clear photo of the fish with fins that show these splits? Split fins is almost never fin rot. Some fish when interacting end up with splits in their fins, I know Black Phantom Tetras are notorious for this. And given you mention White Skirt Tetras earlier...this species is a known fin nipper particularly if not in a decent-sized group of 8 or more, when it will be confined to the species or may stop.

I still think the flashing is ich, and reducing stress by substantial regular (once weekly) water changes of 60-70% of the tank volume, not using any additives aside from conditioner, and not overfeeding, will go a long way to allowing the fish to deal with it.

 

[BetaGrumm]

Here are two videos.
Male white skirt: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tK7VGumLoXiJSr2k9
White skirt and locah: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zt9rMKzFb6BvZxL79
I tried to focus on the male white skirt and the clown loach. It can be a little difficult to see due to the motion.
I have yet to get a good photo. I'll keep trying.

 

[BetaGrumm]

The scratching is so hit or miss it's been really difficult to get a video, but I'll keep trying to get that as well.
They seem to be scratching more on their gills/towards their face than their sides.

 

[BetaGrumm]

@Byron I assume when you say no additives but conditioner, you're still ok with me adding a GH supplement, correct?
I'm not using a dechlorinator as the water is carbon filtered at the gerocery and shouldn't need it.

 

[Byron]

@Byron I assume when you say no additives but conditioner, you're still ok with me adding a GH supplement, correct?

No, not really. What are you using? As previously indicated, the fish mentioned except for the guppies do not need this and will be better without. If you could separate out the guppies, it would solve things.

I'm not using a dechlorinator as the water is carbon filtered at the gerocery and shouldn't need it.

I've no idea how they filter...if chloramine is added to the water supply this so far as I knbow cannot be filtered out. Not sure about chlorine with carbon, but I would doubt it.

 

[BetaGrumm]

Sechem Equilibrium for GH.
Separating the guppy is not possible at this time.

The store filter system is as follows:
- Mechanical
- Active cabon
- Reverse osmosis
- UV sterilization
Everywhere I've read says carbon is effective if not most effective at the complete removal of chlorine and chloramine. I also use a carbon filter on my tap, and it does remove the chlorine smell and taste.
I could get test strips and verify, I don't think I have cause to do so. (Maybe I will anyways, just for fun)

 

[Byron]

Sechem Equilibrium for GH.
Separating the guppy is not possible at this time.

The store filter system is as follows:
- Mechanical
- Active cabon
- Reverse osmosis
- UV sterilization
Everywhere I've read says carbon is effective if not most effective at the complete removal of chlorine and chloramine. I also use a carbon filter on my tap, and it does remove the chlorine smell and taste.
I could get test strips and verify, I don't think I have cause to do so. (Maybe I will anyways, just for fun)

Going back through this thread, I did deal with this Equilibrium GH in post #4. Equilibrium is not good as a means of increasing GH for fish, just plants, and in my discussion with Seachem they advised not to use it except as a plant nutrient.

That's the problem when one has fish with differing requirements/preferences...someone always loses. Though to be honest here, the "soft" water fish species listed will manage in moderately hard water with guppies. But I would deal with this better by using a product intended for fish, and the safest is either rift lake mineral salts or a calcareous substrate. The latter is not controlable of course, another problem issue when you have soft water fish.

I wouldn't want to mislead you on the water filtering, I am not a chemist.