Uncurable ich / ick / white spot

[Dephea]

I am getting very annoyed and rather disheartened now.

150L
ammonia 0ppm
nitr 0ppm
pH 7.5 ish
temp 30 degrees Celsius
live plants, bogwood and resin rocks, all in gravel (changing into sand next week).

Part of the plants and decor removed to make vacuuming easier without having to disturb the gravel too much, still plenty of places to hide

5 gouramis
3 clown loaches*
2 bristlenose plecos
1 ram
some shrimps
a few nerite snails but i doubt they will last long with my loaches

I have previously discovered ich on my fish and I followed a great advice here - bumped temp to 30 degrees, vacuumed gravel daily, made sure new water was the same temperature and dechlorinated. 2 weeks in I had to move houses. That went fast, fish were moved in a 65L plexi with an air stone and lots of plants to hide in, new tank was set up incredibly fast and roughly 60% of the water was from the old tank. I do believe that the stress from that played a big part in this issue, although I did my best to make it as smooth as I was able to.

My gouramis are clear, no signs of spot anymore. The Duke who was the worst is spot free, ram had a few but all are gone now. My loaches however.... They used to have an odd spot here and there. A few days ago those little f%£"%@s decided to re-decorate the tank and disturbed the gravel to the point where they got to the soil substrate. All for a snail. Anyway, ammonia on 0ppm, water settled down, I vacuumed some of the dirt out and covered it with gravel + wood. Is it possible that by digging that deep they exposed themselves to more ich? I have 3 of them, all 3 have spots but one is really bad now and flashing all the time. I don't mind keeping the tank at 30 degrees and carry on vacuuming but I keep doubting that method now, is there anything else I can do? I am going to do all I can to keep this lil dude alive. Not the greatest photos, impossible to see them still unless they sleep / play dead but it's too dark usually

In case any meds are recommended - I live in UK, not everything is available. I know USA seems to have a wider variety.

I own:
King British White Spot Control
Interpet Anti White Spot
API Aquarium salt
API Pimafix**
API Melafix**



* Yes, I am aware loaches grow big. They will be upgraded into a bigger tank soon and when they reach the size I am no longer able to support they will be rehomed with help from my local LFS who I already asked for all options before I bought the fish

**I have gouramis, I am aware of the caution that needs to be taken with those. Lots of meds were given to me as a 'first big fish tank' gift, so I got a whole lot that wasn't even opened yet. Just chilling in the first aid box

 

[FF_Member146894]

clown loaches are very susceptible to ich, and they are very sensitive to medication, so once they get it, it's difficult to treat.
there are different ways to go about this, but i would:
1. raise the temperature, but don't forget to increase oxygenation, since increasing the temperature reduces oxygen. this is done to hasten the life cycle of ich.
2. start adding your ich medication, but slowly, and at a lowered rate (about half of what is written on the instructions) because clown loaches are scaleless fish. since ich is only treatable in certain stages of its life cycle, continue to add medication for a couple of weeks while keeping the temperature raised, increasing the dose very slightly each time, and doing small water changes.
3. after about 3 weeks, and finishing treatment, you should probably do a large water change.
by the way, either move all of the fish into a quarantine tank or don't move any at all because ich can only survive with a host and moving the 3 clown loaches will not solve the problem. although not visible, there is still the possibility that the other fish are still infected.

 

[Dephea]

1. raise the temperature, but don't forget to increase oxygenation, since increasing the temperature reduces oxygen. this is done to hasten the life cycle of ich.

I have an air stone in at all times and fluval U4 with the air bubbles on (can't remember the name of that function of the filter, literally a snorkel blowing air bubbles in and disturbing the surface of the water)

start adding your ich medication, but slowly, and at a lowered rate (about half of what is written on the instructions) because clown loaches are scaleless fish. since ich is only treatable in certain stages of its life cycle, continue to add medication for a couple of weeks while keeping the temperature raised, increasing the dose very slightly each time, and doing small water changes.

This might sound silly but if I replace let's say 10L of water when I vacuum the gravel do I medicate the 10L only before I add it to the tank? I assume adding full dose of meds is a no no?

by the way, either move all of the fish into a quarantine tank or don't move any at all because ich can only survive with a host and moving the 3 clown loaches will not solve the problem. although not visible, there is still the possibility that the other fish are still infected.

Oh I won't be separating the fish. They will all go into a bigger tank, although for the sole purpose of medicating and replacing water I might wait until it's solved. We are going from 150L to 450L so unnecessary water changes will be a no go.

 

[FF_Member146894]

This might sound silly but if I replace let's say 10L of water when I vacuum the gravel do I medicate the 10L only before I add it to the tank? I assume adding full dose of meds is a no no?

sorry that i didn't specify, but, the water changes (about 30 or 40 percent) need to happen before each dose of medication to reduce the toxicity of the medication and pressure/stress on the fish during treatment. after adding new water to the tank, then you can add another dose for the whole tank. this process should occur at least every 24 hours depending on severity and type of medication. also, yes, you should vacuum the gravel, since when the ich begins to die, the debris will fall onto the substrate.
it's generally considered that medication is much more stressful for scaleless fish than others, so don't use a full dose (at least not initially). the fish are already very stressed while infected, so don't add more pressure onto them, or it's very possible they might not survive.

 

[Dephea]

sorry that i didn't specify, but, the water changes (about 30 or 40 percent) need to happen before each dose of medication to reduce the toxicity of the medication and pressure/stress on the fish during treatment. after adding new water to the tank, then you can add another dose. this process should occur at least every 24 hours depending on severity. also, yes, you should vacuum the gravel, since when the ich begins to die, the debris will fall onto the substrate.
it's generally considered that medication is much more stressful for scaleless fish than others, so don't use a full dose (at least not initially). the fish are already very stressed while infected, so don't add more pressure onto them, or it's very possible they might not survive.

The King British white spot medication says I should use half dose every 48h, should I stick to that for now and see if it gets better? Or do big water changes and medicate daily? It's the loaches that are the worst so the half dosage doesn't bother me as the rest of the fish are doing fine atm

I'm so sorry about all the questions, I thought i was doing fine until it all came back so much worse, giving me great anxiety at the moment

 

[Avel1896]

30°C are way too high and favorize parasites growth !
You have to lower temp. to 25°C, do a big waterchange at the same temp. and treat with JBL Punktol.
And clown loaches have nothing to do in 150 liters as they grow up to 30 cm.

 

[Uberhoust]

@Dephea I don't have a lot of experience with fish diseases but the one disease I have had to deal with is Ich. I got it when just establishing a 200 litre tank. It seemed like it dragged on for months but in reality it was about 5 weeks. The one personal experience I had was don't stop the treatment too soon. If you stop the treatment too soon some of the Ich survives and your fish are already weakened and it comes back. The treatment that worked for me was heating the tank to 30 degrees and using airstones. It was hard to leave the temperature up that high and the extra heat made the room feel like a sauna. I kept the heat up for 1.5 weeks after the last visible sign of the disease. I don't know if heat or medication is the best way to go but from experience it can seem like the disease is gone but then shows up again once you relax.

 

[Colin_T]

If they have white spot again, it wasn't completely gone when you moved house and has simply flared up again.

You can normally treat it by keeping the temperature at 30C for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the spots have disappeared from the fish.

Use a thermometer in the water to check the temperature and if in doubt, raise it to 31 or 32C.

Insulate the back, sides and top of the tank to help the heater keep the water warm.

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Melafix, Pimafix and salt do nothing to the white spot parasites.

Malachite Green (aka Victoria Green) or copper will kill white spot.
Malachite Green is carcinogenic so don't ingest or inhale it and wash hands with soapy water after using it or working in the tank.

Copper will kill invertebrates like snails and shrimp so they need to be moved before treting with copper. Then do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week before putting them back in the tank.

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The following link has information about white spot, including different ways to treat it with and without chemicals. See post #1 and 16.

What is ICH?

This is a common question that is often asked, what is ich and how is it recognisable and what causes it? The real term is ICHTHYOPHTHIRIASIS. OR commonly known as white spot. It is an extremely comon parasite that affects aquarium fish. It is highly infectious and potentially lethal and...

www.fishforums.net

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If you use chemicals to treat the tank, do the following.
Work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these so you get a more accurate water volume.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge.

Do a 80-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate. The water change and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and buy the fish some time while the heater does its job.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration when using salt or medications because they reduce the dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

[Dephea]

30°C are way too high and favorize parasites growth !
You have to lower temp. to 25°C, do a big waterchange at the same temp. and treat with JBL Punktol.
And clown loaches have nothing to do in 150 liters as they grow up to 30 cm.

Please read my post to the end, they are getting a bigger tank. They are less than 2 inches each, so at the moment 150L is absolutely fine.

I don't know if heat or medication is the best way to go but from experience it can seem like the disease is gone but then shows up again once you relax.

I am not a fan of adding chemicals to the tank so I didn't add it yet, I had it because it was given to me as a starter pack. I am more than happy to not to add it, I'm just worrying that the heat on it's own won't work fast enough

If they have white spot again, it wasn't completely gone when you moved house and has simply flared up again.

Yeah it most likely wasn't, Like I said I am fully aware the move made it worse. Sadly I didn't have a choice, that was already delayed to the last possible day

You can normally treat it by keeping the temperature at 30C for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the spots have disappeared from the fish.

Atm the temp is set on 30 for three weeks ish, it was dropping to 28/29 sometimes but i used thermafleece on the back, didn't add it on the sides yet but the back worked

Use a thermometer in the water to check the temperature and if in doubt, raise it to 31 or 32C.

Will increased temp long term hurt gouramis and BNPs?

Melafix, Pimafix and salt do nothing to the white spot parasites.

Yeah not adding them. I Was advised to keep them in case I get secondary infections but so far I have white spot only so didn't even open them yet

Do a 80-90% water change and gravel clean the substrate.

I am changing the gravel completely, it was too chunky and the gunk is too difficult to clean. I am switching to sand so it will be a good occasion to properly clean the bottom.


If I carry on with heat what's the longest I can keep the temp at 30 for? I don't want to slowly cook my fish

 

[Colin_T]

Atm the temp is set on 30 for three weeks ish, it was dropping to 28/29 sometimes but i used thermafleece on the back, didn't add it on the sides yet but the back worked

If the temperature dropped to 28-29C, it won't kill the parasites and that could explain why it continues to be a problem. It has to be 30C or the little beasties don't die.

Gouramis are fine with 30C water and naturally occur in warm water.
Bristlenose catfish should be fine for at least a month in 30C.

Depending on what other fishes you have in the tank will determine how long they can survive in the heat. But as a general rule, all tropical freshwater aquarium fish can tolerate a month of 30C temperatures. Most Corydoras and some tetras don't like it that high but will survive a month at 30C.

My tanks will sit on 30-32C right through summer and the fish are fine.

 

[Dephea]

If the temperature dropped to 28-29C, it won't kill the parasites and that could explain why it continues to be a problem. It has to be 30C or the little beasties don't die.

Gouramis are fine with 30C water and naturally occur in warm water.
Bristlenose catfish should be fine for at least a month in 30C.

Depending on what other fishes you have in the tank will determine how long they can survive in the heat. But as a general rule, all tropical freshwater aquarium fish can tolerate a month of 30C temperatures. Most Corydoras and some tetras don't like it that high but will survive a month at 30C.

My tanks will sit on 30-32C right through summer and the fish are fine.

Wonderful, thank you. I will be picking up insulation sheets today and will add them to the bottom and sides, I do have a spare heater too so if I still struggle to keep it at 30 I will add the 2nd one in. I need to replace the gravel (potentially today) as well so they will all go into a clean tank. I have part of the sand for 3 days now in a bucket with a filter and some filter media from the main tank, so hopefully the transition won't be as horrible as people claim it to be. I will use a solid chunk of the water they are in atm and slowly will be increasing the level of water in the tank throughout the evening and night (night owl here) and hopefully this will help. I will monitor for a week or so and will come back with any updates. Really want to avoid meds so we will see how that goes.

Never would have thought I'd be buying insulation sheets to keep my fish happy

 

[Colin_T]

There is another way to treat white spot on fish. It is in post #16 of the link I posted above, but in short you move the fish into a clean container each day for a week. The white spot parasites fall off the fish and sit on the bottom of the bucket/ container while the fish get moved into a clean container each day. Once the fish have been moved into a new container, the old container is washed out and bleached for 15 minutes, then rinsed with clean water and allowed to dry. It can be filled up and re-used the following day.

You have several containers and simply move the fish into a clean container with clean water each day. The parasites fall off and remain behind while the fish go into a clean container.

 

[Dephea]

There is another way to treat white spot on fish. It is in post #16 of the link I posted above, but in short you move the fish into a clean container each day for a week. The white spot parasites fall off the fish and sit on the bottom of the bucket/ container while the fish get moved into a clean container each day. Once the fish have been moved into a new container, the old container is washed out and bleached for 15 minutes, then rinsed with clean water and allowed to dry. It can be filled up and re-used the following day.

You have several containers and simply move the fish into a clean container with clean water each day. The parasites fall off and remain behind while the fish go into a clean container.

Will that not create even more stress? I have huge clear 65L plexis, they are brand new ready for me to use for storage but I can use them for fish first. I just wonder if that is not going to cause more problems as the water will not be cycled, it will be the catching into nets, moving etc? Happy to give it a go, not sure if I'm happy about the water bill after

 

[StevenF]

You could try aquarium UV sterilizer. This will kill parasites floating in the water. I have no experencce with them but it could be enough with increased water temperature to eliminate the problem.

 

[Avel1896]

Melafix, Pimafix and salt do nothing to the white spot parasites.

I rescued and saved a young Comet from Ichthyo by osmotic shock in highly salted water (15 gram/litre), temp. at 28°C, baths last 5 to 7 min. maximum, then fish goes back to Hospital Tank. This 3 times/day for 3-4 days until parasites are killed.

You can also try osmotic rest by adding 1.5 grams of salt to 1 litre of water in Hospital Tank. Environment remains liveable for the fish but not for Ichthyo. Treatment should be maintained for at least 7 days, with 50% daily waterchange, readjusting salt dose to each waterchange.

Keep in mind parasite needs 20-24h to breed.