Unclear about Epsom Salt bath concentrations and gourami bloat

[Killerbro511]

History: I have a platinum gourami who has always been relatively gluttonous however now has a very enlarged stomach and doesn't appear to be eating (I don't think its dropsy as there is no pine coning, swimming also appears to be fine) . I have fasted him for around 6 days whilst still trying to feed the others (I haven't seen him eat that food) and no change has been observed. I also attempted to feed him peas to which he had absolutely no interest in as well as hatching baby brine which I think he ate, although it wasn't much.

So now I'm looking at Epsom salt baths as I've read that they can help. I've already done one yesterday for 15 mins at 1 tablespoon per gallon (no improvement) but am now seeing contradictory statements on various websites about the dose being 1 teaspoon or 1 tablespoon per gallon. Honestly i have no idea which is the correct one however i did notice that he seemed a bit distressed after releasing him back into the tank (could have been from the struggles catching him though).

Any suggestions or other methods for treatment are greatly appreciated!
Thanks.

 

[Colin_T]

How quickly did it get fat?
Did it do a stringy white poop?

Normally when they bloat up (get really fat) overnight, stop eating and do a stringy white poop, they have internal organ failure and are dying. However, they normally die within 24-48 hours of showing those symptoms.

The fact it hasn't eaten for 6 days is a major issue and would suggest something serious.

I'm not sure on the dose rate for Epsom salts, I think it was 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water (equal to about 1 heaped teaspoon per gallon). You put the fish in a separate container with the Epsom salts and leave them for 20-30 minutes then put the fish back in its tank. Do this once or twice a day and if there's no improvement after a few days the fish gets euthanised.

When moving fish that have bloat, do not lift them out of the water with a net because it puts pressure on their insides. Catch the fish in a net and leave it in the water. Put a small container under the net and lift the fish up in the net that is in the container of water. Move the fish to the treatment bucket and carefully let it swim out of the net and container.

 

[Killerbro511]

How quickly did it get fat?
Did it do a stringy white poop?

Normally when they bloat up (get really fat) overnight, stop eating and do a stringy white poop, they have internal organ failure and are dying. However, they normally die within 24-48 hours of showing those symptoms.

The fact it hasn't eaten for 6 days is a major issue and would suggest something serious.

I'm not sure on the dose rate for Epsom salts, I think it was 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water (equal to about 1 heaped teaspoon per gallon). You put the fish in a separate container with the Epsom salts and leave them for 20-30 minutes then put the fish back in its tank. Do this once or twice a day and if there's no improvement after a few days the fish gets euthanised.

When moving fish that have bloat, do not lift them out of the water with a net because it puts pressure on their insides. Catch the fish in a net and leave it in the water. Put a small container under the net and lift the fish up in the net that is in the container of water. Move the fish to the treatment bucket and carefully let it swim out of the net and container.

It progressively got bigger over i think 3ish days and has now remained the same. No white poop that ive seen (no poop in general).

Its other behavior seems to be normal

 

[Colin_T]

To get fat in 3 days is an issue and probably major internal problems that might not be fixed with Epsom salts.

 

[Killerbro511]

To get fat in 3 days is an issue and probably major internal problems that might not be fixed with Epsom salts.

Do you think its still worth a shot or if another treatment would work or be better? Or if its a lost cause.

He has had a red tumor like growth on the base of his tail for as long as i can remember so could that be related? It kinda looks like a bunch of blood vessels or smth piled up. (the black dot is a snail on the glass)

 

[Colin_T]

If a fish doesn't eat for a few days and it's bloated, it's normally a lost cause. You can try antibiotics but it will cost you more than replacing the fish and might not help anyway.

The red on the caudal peduncle (where the tail meets the body) is probably not related to the bloating. It's either colouration or a minor infection that isn't healing. It could be a Mycobacterium (TB) infection in the tail and the fish might also have a TB infection in the body, which has caused organ failure and the bloating. But if the fish was healthy you would normally treat the two things separately. There's no cure for a Mycobacterium infection.

 

[CassCats]

I'd err with mycobacteria as well, leading to dropsy (a symptom, not a disease in itself) and be very aware that many of your tank may have it and be hidden carriers due to exposure. There is no cure, as mentioned.

Wash your hands every single time you handle this tank, do not touch the water at all if you have any open wounds on your hands, and if you have multiple tanks, this tank must always be water changed LAST and the equipment allowed to dry out completely before touching another tank. Even better to use separate equipment (nets, scaping equipment, etc) for this tank altogether. No fish or plants or decor from this tank moved to another tank. Basically, treat this tank as a permanent quarantine where nothing comes out of it.

Some strains of mycobacteria can be transmitted to humans, but without having it tested (expensive) you don't know what strain you may have and/or if 100% it is what you are coping with, so please err on the side of caution and protect yourself and other tanks.

To protect other hobbyists, no fish or plants should leave your care from this tank. Humanely euthanize any unwanted/unwell fish and toss out any unwanted/excess plants unless you want to bleach dip and quarantine afterwards every plant you plan to move or sell. Euthanize any fish exhibiting any of the symptoms.

I don't mean this advice to scare you, but instead to make you aware of this. I dealt with this in the past when I used to have rainbowfish--they're often plagued with mycobacteria being more prone to it. It's not necessarily a death sentence to the entire tank, because many fish can live asymptomatically for a long time with it, but be very aware that there is no cure, it is contagious, and it possibly could spread to you if you aren't careful with hygienic procedures.


That being said, you can also catch this same bacteria from swimming pools, food for thought.


But, pink puffy sores for a prolonged time and now organ failure--these are significant red flags for mycobacteria (aka fish TB). Some may even develop bent spines and appear hunched over. Not always, but they can exhibit any of those symptoms.


(Also, dropsy is internal organ failure building up fluid inside the body. It is a symptom with various causes, and does not always come with pineconing)

 

[Killerbro511]

I'd err with mycobacteria as well, leading to dropsy (a symptom, not a disease in itself) and be very aware that many of your tank may have it and be hidden carriers due to exposure. There is no cure, as mentioned.

Wash your hands every single time you handle this tank, do not touch the water at all if you have any open wounds on your hands, and if you have multiple tanks, this tank must always be water changed LAST and the equipment allowed to dry out completely before touching another tank. Even better to use separate equipment (nets, scaping equipment, etc) for this tank altogether. No fish or plants or decor from this tank moved to another tank. Basically, treat this tank as a permanent quarantine where nothing comes out of it.

Some strains of mycobacteria can be transmitted to humans, but without having it tested (expensive) you don't know what strain you may have and/or if 100% it is what you are coping with, so please err on the side of caution and protect yourself and other tanks.

To protect other hobbyists, no fish or plants should leave your care from this tank. Humanely euthanize any unwanted/unwell fish and toss out any unwanted/excess plants unless you want to bleach dip and quarantine afterwards every plant you plan to move or sell. Euthanize any fish exhibiting any of the symptoms.

I don't mean this advice to scare you, but instead to make you aware of this. I dealt with this in the past when I used to have rainbowfish--they're often plagued with mycobacteria being more prone to it. It's not necessarily a death sentence to the entire tank, because many fish can live asymptomatically for a long time with it, but be very aware that there is no cure, it is contagious, and it possibly could spread to you if you aren't careful with hygienic procedures.


That being said, you can also catch this same bacteria from swimming pools, food for thought.


But, pink puffy sores for a prolonged time and now organ failure--these are significant red flags for mycobacteria (aka fish TB). Some may even develop bent spines and appear hunched over. Not always, but they can exhibit any of those symptoms.


(Also, dropsy is internal organ failure building up fluid inside the body. It is a symptom with various causes, and does not always come with pineconing)

yikes...

I just read up on that and i am just noticing the slight bend in its spine. It doesn't seem thinner though and the there's not white poo (although the bloating is there). I feel like the lump on the tail would have gotten worse over the three years ive had him if it was truly of concern but I may be wrong.

Luckily its my only tank at the moment and the other fish arent showing any symptoms, though as you said it can be asymptomatic so i don't plan on sharing them around any time soon.

It is mildly concerning however as most of the time my whole hand is in the water there are usually some form of micro cuts or grazes present, so lets hope I don't catch it if its there!

I think ill still continue treatment as I've been planning on this tank being my last venture in the hobby for a while and don't think ill replenish numbers once they start dying off.

 

[CassCats]

yikes...

I just read up on that and i am just noticing the slight bend in its spine. It doesn't seem thinner though and the there's not white poo (although the bloating is there). I feel like the lump on the tail would have gotten worse over the three years ive had him if it was truly of concern but I may be wrong.

Luckily its my only tank at the moment and the other fish arent showing any symptoms, though as you said it can be asymptomatic so i don't plan on sharing them around any time soon.

It is mildly concerning however as most of the time my whole hand is in the water there are usually some form of micro cuts or grazes present, so lets hope I don't catch it if its there!

I think ill still continue treatment as I've been planning on this tank being my last venture in the hobby for a while and don't think ill replenish numbers once they start dying off.

They can live with the lumps for a long time.


These pictures are from when I dealt with it in my tanks.

Opted to humanely euthanize any suffering symptoms and maintained the quarantine period. I managed to get the tank symptom free for 8 months before losing the tank to another cause.

And as said, there's many, many strains of mycobacteria but not all of them are readily zoonotic. Humans can be treated for it, albeit it's extremely stubborn to treat and a *lot* of strong antibiotics. Unfortunately these are not available for fish so there really isn't anything we can do outside of strict quarantine measures of affected tanks or complete euthanization of everything and totally restarting from scratch...

I don't see any harm in attempting to help the affected fish. On the off chance it's not mycobacteria, hey, you have a chance. You have nothing to lose by trying if that is the route you wish to take. Realistically, odds are against your gourami even if it isn't myco, but, I've seen worse off fish bounce back from near death to my surprise. There's always room for optimism.

And if you haven't had issue with your hands in the water before, you haven't caught anything, BUT going forward it's a very good habit to wash your hands after with soap and water no matter if you have hand wounds or not. It's simply a strong precaution because in the cases people DO catch mycobacteria, it can be really nasty and it can be avoided.

 

[Colin_T]

yikes...

I just read up on that and i am just noticing the slight bend in its spine. It doesn't seem thinner though and the there's not white poo (although the bloating is there). I feel like the lump on the tail would have gotten worse over the three years ive had him if it was truly of concern but I may be wrong.

If the fish has had the lump on the caudal peduncle region for 3 years and it hasn't changed much or at all, it's not Mycobacteria. Fish TB would have grown substantially during that time.

Fish TB doesn't always cause a bent back and dropsy or any sort of growth inside the fish can cause deformed spines. So if it is showing a slightly bent back now, it's most likely from the dropsy and swelling in the body.

If you are fit and healthy and don't have any underlying health issues like cancer, heart or lung problems, diabetes, etc, you are unlikely to get a Fish TB infection even if you do have the disease in your tank. But you should still be careful and if you have any sores or cuts on your hands that don't heal normally within 2 weeks, tell your doctor you have fish and they might have a Mycobacterium infection. Then get the doctor to take swabs of the wound and send them off for culture.

 

[CassCats]

You cannot tell if it is or isn't mycobacteria without (expensive) proper testing, even in cases with clear and short term symptoms.

That is why it's better to play cautious and take proper procedures on the just in case side.

It can be a longterm disease and have lesions stay unchanged for a long while and live without issues. Yes, most cases it has a shorter time frame, but you cannot say with 100% accuracy here that it is *not* mycobacteria without having it looked at by a microbiologist. Most folks aren't going to send their $5 fish in to be tested for the expense they'd be putting into knowing.

Point is, these symptoms are possible red flags to be aware of and to take precaution with. Regardless of how long it's been.

 

[Back in the fold]

Holy wow ! I’ve seen bloated fish before but this one is the # 1 prize winner . “ Thar she blows ! “