UK Members...a request to suss out disease prevalence.

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Please consider this a follow-up to previous threads about nasty fish diseases, such as Neon Tetra Disease and the Dwarf Gourami Virus...
I know these diseases are real and serious and there appears to be a lot of knowledge about them, especially from members in here who reside either Stateside or down South, in the Antipodes.
However...

I've been spending some significant time talking with different fish shop staff, all of whom were themselves aquarists and have appeared to know the hobby, asking about the aforementioned diseases. So far, none have expressed a working awareness of this, other than what they've read on the internet, in Forums and Groups such as this one. I've also asked in some detail about their quarantine practices and, to be fair, I've heard some reassuring noises. That said, I wouldn't call the staff of 4 shops an extensive survey sample.

So, next time you wander into your respective fish shops, could you please, please ask them about;
Dwarf Gourami Virus?
Neon Tetra Disease?
Guppy a dnEndler inbreeding?
Their (alleged) quarantine procedures and suppliers/supply chain?

I was told that;
We get our fish from UK-importers, who quarantine the fish for an extensive period, before they are supplied to our LFS. (Apparently, they also get wormed and treated for protozoan passengers, and some even subject their fish to UV light treatment, prior to going on sale). Our importers get their livestock from SE Asia and Eastern Europe, with more increasingly coming from the latter..

Re the inbreeding, they all confirmed that this does occur, especially given that many fish spend time together and get jiggy with it. This apparently often occurs within some local breeders, where fish aren't separated soon enough. Of course, this also happens in the fish farms, although there the gene pool is somewhat deeper at any given time.

Asking about the diseases, whilst some were familiar with Neon Tetra Disease, none were familiar with the Dwarf Gourami Virus, although one older shop keeper said that it was an issue 'many, many years ago.'

I've also spoken to a couple of fish-keeping mates, over in West Yorkshire and they have, so far, come up with similar responses.

I'm now curious...is the DGV absent from the UK, or are we all just ignorant of it? Obviously, I asked about dying dying fish and/or unhappy customers and, again, this wasn't an issue.

(As an aside, one strange and unwelcome development was the absence of female gourami, simply because they aren't colourful enough and no-one wants to breed their fish).

 

[itiwhetu]

Please consider this a follow-up to previous threads about nasty fish diseases, such as Neon Tetra Disease and the Dwarf Gourami Virus...
I know these diseases are real and serious and there appears to be a lot of knowledge about them, especially from members in here who reside either Stateside or down South, in the Antipodes.
However...

I've been spending some significant time talking with different fish shop staff, all of whom were themselves aquarists and have appeared to know the hobby, asking about the aforementioned diseases. So far, none have expressed a working awareness of this, other than what they've read on the internet, in Forums and Groups such as this one. I've also asked in some detail about their quarantine practices and, to be fair, I've heard some reassuring noises. That said, I wouldn't call the staff of 4 shops an extensive survey sample.

So, next time you wander into your respective fish shops, could you please, please ask them about;
Dwarf Gourami Virus?
Neon Tetra Disease?
Guppy a dnEndler inbreeding?
Their (alleged) quarantine procedures and suppliers/supply chain?

I was told that;
We get our fish from UK-importers, who quarantine the fish for an extensive period, before they are supplied to our LFS. (Apparently, they also get wormed and treated for protozoan passengers, and some even subject their fish to UV light treatment, prior to going on sale). Our importers get their livestock from SE Asia and Eastern Europe, with more increasingly coming from the latter..

Re the inbreeding, they all confirmed that this does occur, especially given that many fish spend time together and get jiggy with it. This apparently often occurs within some local breeders, where fish aren't separated soon enough. Of course, this also happens in the fish farms, although there the gene pool is somewhat deeper at any given time.

Asking about the diseases, whilst some were familiar with Neon Tetra Disease, none were familiar with the Dwarf Gourami Virus, although one older shop keeper said that it was an issue 'many, many years ago.'

I've also spoken to a couple of fish-keeping mates, over in West Yorkshire and they have, so far, come up with similar responses.

I'm now curious...is the DGV absent from the UK, or are we all just ignorant of it? Obviously, I asked about dying dying fish and/or unhappy customers and, again, this wasn't an issue.

(As an aside, one strange and unwelcome development was the absence of female gourami, simply because they aren't colourful enough and no-one wants to breed their fish).

My experience tells me that no importer or LFS wants to sell sick fish. My experience with importing is that some importers move fish out of quarantine to soon, the fish look well but may have underlying conditions. I also don't believe that even though a fish shows no symptoms of a disease it doesn't mean it doesn't have it. Stress is the main trigger for all disease breakouts in aquariums. We also have no idea with diseases what we are dealing with, I believe that most diseases that we see in aquariums are actually secondary infections and are caused by a primary condition in the fish that we never see.

 

[itiwhetu]

I will give an example. Neon Tetra disease. We have a six week quarantine. Fish come in are fine Week two get neon tetra disease
Week four cured
Week six comes back
Week eight cured. fish are sold
Fish go to customers tanks a small portion of those customers get Neon tetra disease.

The disease is lying dormant waiting to to strike when conditions are right.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

The disease is lying dormant waiting to to strike when conditions are right.

"When conditions are right."
Indeed.

 

[Cydeth]

I can't speak about the specific diseases mentioned, but I know one of my local shops is becoming increasingly frustrated by the quality of fish, specifically neons.

I was taken to their quarantine room on Saturday and shown their latest delivery of neons, black neons and cardinals. They were riddled with ich, kinked spines and other diseases that made them unsellable. He was going to treat them and see how they fared but didn't hold any hope for the batch. There were supposedly 200 fish in that delivery.

It was a similar situation for stockist bought bristlenose and live bearers. I saw two tanks of platy and one of mollies all with significant issues. From what he was saying he was going to turn to local hobby breeders he trusts for those in the future.

With gourami he mentioned finding it hard to source them in general, and as was mentioned in this thread, he found it next to impossible to get females. Although the occasional one slipped through and he would try to put them aside for people he knew had a desire to breed them.

This is far from the first encounter I've had like this, and with the neons it was a similar picture at my closest Maidenhead a few weeks ago, the tank was absolutely disease ridden.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

I don't buy fish from the stores due to a variety of reasons, mainly mobility issues

I buy online and have all fish delivered. Doing it this way, I feel, carries a bigger risk since you do not actually see where the fish come from unlike the store where you can see their living conditions and pick up any potential issues visually before making your purchase.

I am not going to name the company concerned but my first online purchase went terribly wrong. The fish arrived either DOA or struggling. All of the fish were undersize, thus obvious to me they were far too young to be travelling anywhere let alone overnight in courier vans. They were poorly packed, leaking bags, too little oxygen, no heat packs (this was mid winter on a frosty night/early morning). They have a DOA policy of 7 days with refund/replacement upon receipt of photos of dead/dying fish. That actually in reality meant nothing since they shifted the blame to everyone including myself and the van driver and the refund/replacement was infact a credit note.

Lesson firmly learnt. Company's local authority notified.

My supplier now has been magnificent. They do not import fish. They have their own breeding facilities and will not put a fish up for sale until they are as sure as they can be that its healthy and of a high enough standard to cope with transit. They double bag all fish in oversized bags, in the 5 years or so that I have used them I have not had a single fish death either after transport or once arrived. The fish are packed with utmost care, very healthy and active right from the time they arrive and I open the box. If the company has any disease issues, which is inevitable when handling large numbers of fish, or fish born deformed...they do not sell the fish. Deformed are euthanised, any disease outbreak and that particular fish type is removed from sale immediately and they are either treated or euthanised. They have a 14 day DOA policy that carries an actual refund or replacement, not a credit note. They take diseases very seriously. They took their entire stock of DG's off and as I was thinking about having one, I asked why and they said that a fish brought in from another UK breeder was showing symptoms of DGV after quarantine, so they decided to withdraw all DGs as a precaution.

After the first company let the fish and myself down I made sure that whoever I chose next to supply me with fish had all the right paperwork, could provide date stamped photos of their facilities (since I am unable to visit in person) and that they husbandry was of a high standard.

Whether you buy from a store or online, you can never be 100% sure of disease status in fish that you buy, but there are ways and means that you can lessen the risk, even if that means paying more for a fish online than you would in a chainstore. Actual tracing and back tracing disease is also alot harder for the big chains by virtue that they buy in bulk at bulk prices, whereas some online suppliers have their own farms/facilities and can therefore be far more careful in checking for deformity or disease and thus which stock will make it to point of sale and which will not.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I buy online and have all fish delivered...

It would be useful to know your recommendation and which supplier you had the poor experience with.

I've since learned that apparently not all Maidenhead Aquatics get their stocks from the same supplier, with more purchases now coming from eastern Europe and less from SE Asia.
I've also learned that whilst many British shops do get their fish from fish farms, they often pass through the hands of British importers, who quarantine the fish themselves and subject them to de-worming and so forth, before selling them onto the shops.

 

[DoubleDutch]

I really don't get what you're trying to say Bruce? These disease aren't an issue ?Wholesalers and LFS earn their money by selling fish. Knowledge of sick fish endanger that and
Sick / dead fish mean replacement in that part of the trade + the sale of meds / antibiotics etccccc. You're asking the wrong people.

I joined a different UK forum in 2014 cause of the incredible amount of sick and dead DG's in Hollanr. Within 2 days I got the answer of one of the moderators (Ian). "What the fish are facing probably is DGD / the Gourami Iridovirus". I did some research and he was right. So before that the virus was known in the UK. If an LFS tells you it is unknown they're ignorant or plain stupid (sorry)

NTD is a known, rare, lethal, uncurable disease. If diagnosed (only called NTD cause it was the first fish it was ID-ed on).

Nowadays there is a strain of Columnaris bacteria in Neons (False NTD) that will show in case of stress / bad conditions.
Also this Columnaris is caused by the pressurebreeding / overuse of antibiotics and resistant strains caused of that.

Would hope you were right and we wouldn't be facing these disasters in the trade. We humans really destroyed the most beautiful fish in the trade. An importban could help but guess why the trade itself won't interfere.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I really don't get what you're trying to say Bruce? These disease aren't an issue ?Wholesalers and LFS earn their money by selling fish. Knowledge of sick fish endanger that and
Sick / dead fish mean replacement in that part of the trade + the sale of meds / antibiotics etccccc. You're asking the wrong people.

Whilst I wholly accept that the diseases exist and are out there, I am yet to be convinced that their prevalence is as widespread as some would have us believe.

I'm also not as cynical to believe that LFS hide their info re disease, simply because it is in their own profit-making interest to keep customers happy. Maybe it was eay to hide in the days of yore, but now, with social media, it would be very difficult for a shop to get away with selling truly diseased fish. Any shop receiving lower quality fish will be addressing that with their source. Retailers do talk to each other, apparently, and SE Asia no longer has the monopoly in fish farming, with eastern Europe now providing an excellent and competing service.

I'm also wary of the idea that there is specifically this virus, just waiting to pounce when conditions are right. Granted, those 'conditions' are usually down to poor tank maintenance, but any number of factors could result in the demise of tank occupants and, unless the aggrieved fishkeeper has the right microscope equipment and associated medical/vetinary virology paraphenalia, a firm diagnosis of DGV is unlikely...although convenient. Few of us like to admit they we've neglected our charges, so attributing 'unexplained' deaths to the virus, especially when other posters will then avidly confirm its existence, as it also killed their fish, doesn't take too great a stretch of the imagination. All of which contributes to a distortion of the disease prevalence.
How many times in this forum, especially amongst newer members, do we hear that everything was perfect and suddenly the fish died for no known reason? That it was 'disease', or 'in-breeding', or whatever...and how often does a closer examination reveal that the water itself was simply toxic?

 

[Ichthys]

I’ve worked at a British importers. ‘Quarantine’ often just means they’ve had them a few days/weeks before they sold them. That is all it means for some of them. So don’t expect them to be disease-free just because they’ve been ‘quarantined’.

 

[DoubleDutch]

Whilst I wholly accept that the diseases exist and are out there, I am yet to be convinced that their prevalence is as widespread as some would have us believe.

I'm also not as cynical to believe that LFS hide their info re disease, simply because it is in their own profit-making interest to keep customers happy. Maybe it was eay to hide in the days of yore, but now, with social media, it would be very difficult for a shop to get away with selling truly diseased fish. Any shop receiving lower quality fish will be addressing that with their source. Retailers do talk to each other, apparently, and SE Asia no longer has the monopoly in fish farming, with eastern Europe now providing an excellent and competing service.

I'm also wary of the idea that there is specifically this virus, just waiting to pounce when conditions are right. Granted, those 'conditions' are usually down to poor tank maintenance, but any number of factors could result in the demise of tank occupants and, unless the aggrieved fishkeeper has the right microscope equipment and associated medical/vetinary virology paraphenalia, a firm diagnosis of DGV is unlikely...although convenient. Few of us like to admit they we've neglected our charges, so attributing 'unexplained' deaths to the virus, especially when other posters will then avidly confirm its existence, as it also killed their fish, doesn't take too great a stretch of the imagination. All of which contributes to a distortion of the disease prevalence.
How many times in this forum, especially amongst newer members, do we hear that everything was perfect and suddenly the fish died for no known reason? That it was 'disease', or 'in-breeding', or whatever...and how often does a closer examination reveal that the water itself was simply toxic?

The right conditions for the virus to pop up are the ones that we see as "normal conditions".
Due to the fact that fish often are bred and raised in tanks full of antibiotics / meds to keep these fish infection free. When they hit our water with normal bacteria populations things go wrong. They hardly have any resistance to bacteria that in case of "normal fish" don't do any harm. That also causes a lot allready get sick or even die in the displaytank.
A lot of DG's shouldn't even be sold by an LFS.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I’ve worked at a British importers. ‘Quarantine’ often just means they’ve had them a few days/weeks before they sold them. That is all it means for some of them. So don’t expect them to be disease-free just because they’ve been ‘quarantined’.

C'mon...there's a huge difference between a few days and a few weeks!

 

[Ichthys]

C'mon...there's a huge difference between a few days and a few weeks!

We used to get fish in every week, same types, and they were always added to the same tanks.... in with what was left of last week’s shipment. So no, there wasn’t much difference...

 

[DoubleDutch]

We used to get fish in every week, same types, and they were always added to the same tanks.... in with what was left of last week’s shipment. So no, there wasn’t much difference...

QT-ing was transport hahaha

 

[Ichthys]

QT-ing was transport hahaha

Actually, as you probably know DD, it’s the transport that causes the disease. Unstressed fish, and fish in antibiotics, don’t get diseases, but if you could see (or smell) the water in the bags when they’ve travelled half way round the world, you’d be surprised if they weren’t diseased.
Half of them, 50%, died just because of the toxic soup the water turns into. Stinking bags of brown water with hardly a fish still alive were a common occurrence, believe it or not. Every shipment contained some.

Some exporters and wholesalers are much better of course, but mostly, fish are still hideously overcrowded in transport.