Treating Ich In A Tank With Scaleless Fish
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NeonBlueLeon
Fishaholic
I learned something new today!fluttermoth said:
I think the point of the garlic is to work up your fish's appetite. I can't see how garlic is relevant to Ich.
Were you folks talking about medicated food? Medicated foods are more for internal bacterial infections (columnaris/swim bladder issues), and won't do much for Ich (which is external). Some medicated foods are rejected by fish, so a way to get them to eat it is to soak the food in garlic juice. This makes the food tastier for fish, I guess.
EDIT: grammar and spelling fixes. I'm sleepy.
NeonBlueLeon
Fishaholic
That's right. I forgot it was also a natural antibiotic as well.
Had a bit of a nightmare this morning, after everything I read, what I knew and what you guys told me about taking carbon out of the filter I convinced myself I didn't have any in there, I didn't give it a second thought until about 15 minutes ago when I realised after my tank and filter change I DID put a bag in one of the compartments, I've just taken it out now. I'm hoping the fact that it's been used for a couple of months will mean it's not as effective as it could be as I read somewhere they only have a working life of 6-8 weeks?
Either case nothing I can do now so will continue the next part of the meds tomorrow.
Either case nothing I can do now so will continue the next part of the meds tomorrow.
NeonBlueLeon
Fishaholic
Yes, usually carbon gets used up by two months or so, depending on a number of different factors. Carbon is actually non-essential for a fish tank. I only use it as a last resort for de-clouding water, and 99% of the time I find and deal with the problem without it (floating particles due to water change, bacteria bloom cause a dead plant got lodged in my filter, etc.).
Just an update, been through two courses of treatment and it looks like the whitespots cleared up, haven't seen any on my fish since Saturday so I'll more than likely do another one or two courses just to make sure. However one of my Rummy Noses isn't looking great, it's hard to explain but it looks like a white growth inside of it, I've read on the internet it's likely to be an infection which affects the muscle tissue or something along those lines. At the moment the fish is still coloured up and shoaling fine but people have said that over time it will begin to suffer unless treated.
I have some Myxazin which treats bacteria which is probably my best bet, so I plan on completing the whitespot treatment first as that's my primary concern before waiting and treating this latest issue.
I have some Myxazin which treats bacteria which is probably my best bet, so I plan on completing the whitespot treatment first as that's my primary concern before waiting and treating this latest issue.
NeonBlueLeon
Fishaholic
Sorry to hear about a secondary infection. This is common when there is an Ich outbreak.
Is that a confident diagnosis? You want to avoid treating a fish for a sickness that it doesn't have because it is stressful, meds are harmful, and wrong meds won't help the infection so you may end up losing the fish anyway.
I ask because Myxazin contains Malachite Green, formaldehyde, and acriflavin. Formaldehyde is toxic for all life forms (except some bacteria). I've heard gnarly stuff about Malachite Green. I've never heard of acriflavin.
I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but a quarantine tank should be used to treat your rummy nose with Myxazin. It is definitely a bad idea to treat the whole tank for it if only your rummy nose has it.
Is that a confident diagnosis? You want to avoid treating a fish for a sickness that it doesn't have because it is stressful, meds are harmful, and wrong meds won't help the infection so you may end up losing the fish anyway.
I ask because Myxazin contains Malachite Green, formaldehyde, and acriflavin. Formaldehyde is toxic for all life forms (except some bacteria). I've heard gnarly stuff about Malachite Green. I've never heard of acriflavin.
I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but a quarantine tank should be used to treat your rummy nose with Myxazin. It is definitely a bad idea to treat the whole tank for it if only your rummy nose has it.
NeonBlueLeon
Fishaholic
I'm not sure how much research you've done on Ich, but I just posted this on another Ich thread, and thought I'd share it with you. It really helps to understand Ich.
Here's a crash course on the Ich life cycle.
Stage 1: The Ich has burrowed beneath the slime coat of the fish, and is immune to meds at this time. A salt dip may be used to get the Ich off the fish. Remeber, the white spot is not Ich, that is the fish's body's reaction to the parasite burrowed in it's skin. Here, the parasite feeds on the host. Enough parasites on a fish will overwhelm it, and kill it.
Stage 2: The Ich detaches itself from the host, and attaches itself to any surface in preparation to go into stage 3. I believe the Ich is vulnerable when it detaches from the host. However, when it clings to a surface, it creates a protective coat and is no longer vulnerable to meds. This stage is invisible to the naked eye. When the Ich comes out into stage 3, it will have multiplied into 100 new Ich parasites.
Stage 3: The Ich is in its free floating swimming stage. In this stage, it is also invisible to the naked eye. It will swim around in the water until it finds a host to attach to. This is when Ich is vulnerable to medications (salt and chemical meds). If the Ich parasite cannot find a host, it will die.
Notes:
-There is no dormat stage of an Ich parasite. Therefore, any claims that say Ich is always present in a tank, and is an opportunistic infector, is just a false rumor. Without hosts, the Ich will die.
-The life cycle of the parasite depends on the temperature of the water, ranging from weeks in a coldwater pond to a 3-4 days in a tropical tank. There have been experiments that have found high temperatures alone can kill Ich (90 degrees Farenheit and higher).
-In nature, a fish may have one or two Ich parasites. One Ich parasite obviously will not kill a fish, and the fish may not even notice it. Eventually it will detach and go into stage 2. After stage 2, 100 new Ich parasites form and look for a new fish. Perhaps only one or two actually find a fish to attach to before dying. In the confines of a tank however, Ich parasites swimming around have a much higher chance of finding a host. This is what causes an outbreak in a tank.
Here's a crash course on the Ich life cycle.
Stage 1: The Ich has burrowed beneath the slime coat of the fish, and is immune to meds at this time. A salt dip may be used to get the Ich off the fish. Remeber, the white spot is not Ich, that is the fish's body's reaction to the parasite burrowed in it's skin. Here, the parasite feeds on the host. Enough parasites on a fish will overwhelm it, and kill it.
Stage 2: The Ich detaches itself from the host, and attaches itself to any surface in preparation to go into stage 3. I believe the Ich is vulnerable when it detaches from the host. However, when it clings to a surface, it creates a protective coat and is no longer vulnerable to meds. This stage is invisible to the naked eye. When the Ich comes out into stage 3, it will have multiplied into 100 new Ich parasites.
Stage 3: The Ich is in its free floating swimming stage. In this stage, it is also invisible to the naked eye. It will swim around in the water until it finds a host to attach to. This is when Ich is vulnerable to medications (salt and chemical meds). If the Ich parasite cannot find a host, it will die.
Notes:
-There is no dormat stage of an Ich parasite. Therefore, any claims that say Ich is always present in a tank, and is an opportunistic infector, is just a false rumor. Without hosts, the Ich will die.
-The life cycle of the parasite depends on the temperature of the water, ranging from weeks in a coldwater pond to a 3-4 days in a tropical tank. There have been experiments that have found high temperatures alone can kill Ich (90 degrees Farenheit and higher).
-In nature, a fish may have one or two Ich parasites. One Ich parasite obviously will not kill a fish, and the fish may not even notice it. Eventually it will detach and go into stage 2. After stage 2, 100 new Ich parasites form and look for a new fish. Perhaps only one or two actually find a fish to attach to before dying. In the confines of a tank however, Ich parasites swimming around have a much higher chance of finding a host. This is what causes an outbreak in a tank.
Thanks for the heads up on the Myxazin, maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea in that case, in terms of the ich I haven't seen any symptoms since Saturday but I am still treating it just incase. I've dosed the tank today but providing there's no further outbreak I think it will be the last round of treatment I do and over the next few days return the tank back down to it's usual temperature.
The tetra's disease I read a few topics on online and the general consensus that it was an internal infection, I can't find the one I found which had the name of the disease in right now though, will have a look later on, but I'll hold off on the treatment until I' 100% sure.
The tetra's disease I read a few topics on online and the general consensus that it was an internal infection, I can't find the one I found which had the name of the disease in right now though, will have a look later on, but I'll hold off on the treatment until I' 100% sure.
Just to put a flip side on this. I have treated a whole six foot tank for white spot with Waterlife Protozin which includes my Whiptails and Dwarf Hoplos and my Agenisous which are a naked fish with no problems. I simply turned my heaters up to 30 for a week and dose with the Protozin for about 10 days.
I also had to dose the tank with Myxazin to combat a disease that was causing all kinds of problems in my tank and it fully cured and stopped very aggressive disease in my tank.
I would only recommend Waterlife to people personally. And while I know it does contain some pretty iffy stuff it is minute doses otherwise you would either not be able to buy it or the store would need a license to sell it - there would be age restrictions, strict monitoring etc - It would be the same as Veterinary medicine surely? Also using the Waterlife medications has never knocked or bumped my filter which is more than I can say for some other medications so it does show how tame the meds are...
Hope that helps
Wills
I also had to dose the tank with Myxazin to combat a disease that was causing all kinds of problems in my tank and it fully cured and stopped very aggressive disease in my tank.
I would only recommend Waterlife to people personally. And while I know it does contain some pretty iffy stuff it is minute doses otherwise you would either not be able to buy it or the store would need a license to sell it - there would be age restrictions, strict monitoring etc - It would be the same as Veterinary medicine surely? Also using the Waterlife medications has never knocked or bumped my filter which is more than I can say for some other medications so it does show how tame the meds are...
Hope that helps
Wills
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
This remains my favorite information on ich:
"Freshwater Ich Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper."
From http
/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html
"Freshwater Ich Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper."
From http
/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html
alanwebse
New Member
The easiest and safest treatment for scaleless fish for ich is to slightly raise your temperature to around 82 degrees to speed the three stage life cycle of the ich. Treat the tank with a medicine that states that it can be used in lower dosages, Never use medications that doesn´t states this as using these in lower dosages can cause increased resistence in the ich/ick. Use only ¼ to ½ of the for regular fish recommended dose for scaleless fish and closely monitor the fish for increased stress. Remember that ich once it detaches from the fish will fall to the gravel and form hundreds of new tomites. Removing the ich infested fish will not cure the problem. This is a disease where the main tank needs to be treated. Without treating the main tank a relapse of ich may occur. As always with medications use of an airstone is recommended as most meds are oxidizing and decrease oxygen levels in the aquarium.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
dang- I quoted the stuff and now I see it is gone- OH well lets try again:
"Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper."
From http/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html
"Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.
White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).
Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper."
From http
/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.htmlThanks for the input guys, it's much appreciated! I haven't seen any symptoms since Saturday which is 4 or so days ago so over the next couple of days I won't be dosing the meds and will begin to lower the temperature and get the tank back to it's usual conditions. I must have managed to catch it early enough because (touch wood) I haven't lost any fish and it cleared up the day after I first noticed it. Only problem I have as I mentioned before is the internal growth inside one of the Tetras but I'll reevaluate that after a water change in the next few days.
Nice to know you've had a good experience with this! I've used it once before to treat a Banjo Catfish after it had half it's tail missing, didn't work in this case but the amount of loss of the tail day by day suggested it was probably too far gone to treat successfully. But the other fish had no problems while I was dosing.Wills said:
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