Treating clown loach w/ wasting disease

[TwoTankAmin]

This doesn't belong in the emergency section as I am not needing help but an posting about an ongoing treatment process.

I have a 150 with clown loaches of all sizes and some redline barbs. My second biggest clown has been battlinh wasting diseas for some time and losing the battle. No other fish have ever showed themselves to be infected. A few months ago I treated the 150 witrh Flubendazole whoch is costly to do. Catching the fish would have been difficult and may have half destroyed the tank.

The fish eats when I feed the tank but continued to lose weight. I needed to treat it in an H. tank. But I had no place I could put up such a tank. However, a couple of weeks back I began cycling filters to set up my summer tanks outside- 4 x 20L. Last week I got all 4 tanks up and running and cycled. I set up one to becom the H tank for the clown which is about 9 inches. There are two cycled Poret cubefilters, a large piec of wood it can hid behind and under (to some extent) and a big cave. Thr trick was catching the clownm an I had a plan.

There ia a overly large cave in the left rear of the 150 and thie sick clown used it now and then, So the plant was to nab the fish by using the cave with a net put over the mouth when the fish was inside, The the cave and fish would go intot a 2.5 gal. bucket to be carried out the the screened terrace where the summer tanks awaited. It took 2.5 days to nabe the fish as I needed to fill the bucket w/ tank water before catching the fish and then climb the ladder remove the lid. The fish kept leaving the cave before I could do it all, until Monday.

everything went as planned in the capture and then I fold my mistake. The cavew was bigger than the bucket, so I had to dump the fish out of it. Abd out we went to the terrace. Next I had to renmove water from the H tank so I could pour the fish and water into it. Next, I had to remove as much water from the bucket before I dumped in the fish. All done and ready to unload.

Oops. the H tank is and under tanks and the next level was low enough that I gould not pour all the water and the fish out into the H space. I had to bang the buck to get the fish to slide out into the H tank. PHEW!

The final step was to add 1/2 teaspoon of my Flubendazole 10% poweder intp the tank. To do this I mix the poweder with a few drops of Vodka and then add tank water and it mixes into that. From there into the tank.

I know the fish is not happy being in the small space and alone. But it will die if I do not do this. So Monday night I fed a bunch of my leas few sinking sticks from kensfish.com and later, when I was feeding all the regular tanks frozen, I added some of it to the H tank. Next morning (yesterday) all the food was gone. Last night I fed Ebo-Aquaristik Shrimp pellets and veggies stick and it was gone this morning. I fed a bit of the Ebo mussel softgran (small size) a couple of hours ago and when I was changing water and dosing ammonia into the three other empty of fish 20Ls, I noticed the food was gone.

It may be my imagination or hoping, but I think the fish looks like it has added some weight. What worries me is I see no sign of poop or dead parasites, so far. The fact that htis did not spread to other fish makes me wonder if the problem might be a tape worm instead. Hpwever, I believe that flubendazople will work against those as well.Either way I need to see the fish gain weight. if the Flub. fails, I will try a round of Praziqquantel which is recommended for tape worms.

I will keep posting here thinking the info may be useful to others.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

So far so good. Later this afternoon I will do a big water change on the tank and do the second dose of Flubendazole. I am feeding the fish several times a day and the food is always gone fairly fast.

The fish is not happy about its current quarters. To go from a 150 gal will 9 other assorted sized clowns into a 20L on its own is not easy. But the fish seems to be handling it OK so far. Every now and then when I am dropping in food or just checking up on the fish I catch it peering over the top of the wood our out from under it and starting at me.

Maybe I am anthropomorphizing, but I think it recognizes me.

I tested for ammonia in the tank last evening as it is a big fish in a small tank being fed a lot--> 0 ppm.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Seen any poop yet?

 

[Endlersendlers]

So far so good. Later this afternoon I will do a big water change on the tank and do the second dose of Flubendazole. I am feeding the fish several times a day and the food is always gone fairly fast.

The fish is not happy about its current quarters. To go from a 150 gal will 9 other assorted sized clowns into a 20L on its own is not easy. But the fish seems to be handling it OK so far. Every now and then when I am dropping in food or just checking up on the fish I catch it peering over the top of the wood our out from under it and starting at me.

Maybe I am anthropomorphizing, but I think it recognizes me.

I tested for ammonia in the tank last evening as it is a big fish in a small tank being fed a lot--> 0 ppm.

They learn faces, especially when there’s more 1:1 time like this. Admittedly, that’s my opinion.

 

[Colin_T]

If the fish has been eating well but losing weight over months, it probably has intestinal worms. You should really treat all the tanks at the same time to prevent cross contamination and reinfection after you finish treating the fish. You should also treat the main tank because it will contain worm eggs, which the fish can pick up by grubbing about in the substrate.

Deworming medications should be used once a week for 3-4 weeks so you kill the adult worms along with worm larvae that hatch from eggs.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am leaning towards it not being something that flubendazole will treat. I went through 2 dose slightly stronger than suggested, The dosing is 1/2 teaspoon/20 gals. The tank is a 20L but I think it holds about 16 gals.

I got a better look at the fish and is has mot gained weight despite eating. I saw no signs of poop as I just did a big WC. I have been feeding the Repashy Spawn & Grow with about a 20% mix in of the Soilent Green. It is a high fat food and the fish has been eating it.

For Background- this has been an ongoing problems for many months. I treated the entire tank with Flub a while ago. But I decided to redo the treatment in a smaller space this time. No other fish have shown any sign of wasting and there were 11 clowns and 4 large redline barbs in the tank. I lost one of the redlines recently, but not from wasting.

So, as I am posting this I am debating the next move. I see 3 option:
1. Do a 3rd round of of Flub. I am thinking this is w=not the best option at all, I see no signs of expelled parasites and no poop.
2. Assume the problem is an internal infection which is also not likely the cause as the fish would more likely be swollen than wasting. However, it could be a secondary issue. If so I feel an antibiotic that should be eaten is to best option and I would have to order medicated food to do this.
3. Assume it is a tapeworm. If this is the cause then Praziquantel is the cure and I have a big bottle of PraziPro. The directions say not to mix it with other meds.

So, I just did about a 60% water change and that means I still have 40% of whatever residual Flub. there might have been. I have an Eheim Kiberty hang-on whichis a 200 gph filter. Butto make it work wih carbon I need to fill two very big bags with carbon as the only media in use. The filter has dual outputs and I need carbon on both sides.

So I have it on the tank with enough carbon for at least a 150 gal. in order to insure a maximum water exposure to some carbon, I needed to make sure the water could not exit either side of the filter without having had some contact with the carbon. I figure I need to run the filter for about 30 minutes and then I will add the Prazi.
I did notice the clown ate at least one of the two pieces of the S&G mix. It was sitting with a pile of what was left of the second piece just in front of it's mouth.

As I am typing this I am wondering what is next if the Prazi is not the solution and thus neither is the cause of the problem a tapeworm. It could be that the fish has some sort of defect from birth that just took a very long time to manifest. It has never shown signs of pain and has not spent all of it's time hiding. As mentioned, this problem has been ongoing for some time.

I have 20 tanks not counting the 4 summer 20Ls, one of which is the H tank. I have no signs of wasting in any of the fish in the same tank as the clown and none in any of the other 19 either. If I had to make an educated guess as to how many fish are in those 20 tanks, I would say between 350 and 400. At least 1/2 that total were born in my tanks.

Anyhow, I will keep posting here on the progress, or lack thereof, until the fish is either "cured" or it moves on to the "Great Aftertank".

 

[Colin_T]

Flubendazole should treat tapeworm as well as round/ thread worms.

It takes about a month or so before you notice an improvement in the fish's body shape after deworming. Sometimes longer if it's not fed well.

The problem with medicated food is you need to make sure the fish get a high enough dose when fed it. If they don't get enough, it won't work. And if the fish is picking up eggs from the substrate, you need to keep treating them for long enough so all the eggs hatch and the worm larvae die.

You need to do a complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment to remove dead/ paralysed worms and clean up any eggs in the substrate. You need to clean the filter too for the same reason.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I clean vac the sand before I do a water change and remedicate. I have read that Flub. will kill tape worm or that it may not. So once the second dose after 3 days ran another three, I did a good vac. I did vac the tops of the cubefilters but I did not remove them from the tank to rinse them. But any med in the water is also in those filters.

Flubendazole works to cause the tapeworm to starve to death. Prazi is considered to be the treatment of choice for tapeworm. So he worst that might happens is I an shooting oit and then stabbing it. One way or the other if the issue is a tapeworm, it should be finished. The directions for using Flub. from Dr. Harrison suggest repeating the treatment with one more dose after three weeks is suggested if it appears to be needed. The dosing for the Prazi is for 5-7 days and one dose is usually enough. It can be repeated but only at 3 day intervals max.

So, I will see how it goes. But I will not use the Prazi for more than 2 weeks if that. The fish is eating and I am watching it. If it does not seem to be gaining any weight after almost 4 weeks of medicating- 1st 2 doses of Flub. 3 days apart and then 1 or two weeks of Prazi, I will still have one more week to observe and to decide if I will try the 3rd dose of Flub having removed all the Prazi from the water.

I do not mix meds unless they are stated to be safe to use together (an antibiotic and a fungus cure or Maracyn and Maracyn 2 as examples). I also think that 4 weeks would be enough to see if it is gaining any weight. I am feeding it well- Repashy, Hikari frozen, Ebo-Aquaristik and even ad few kensfish sinking sticks. The Repashy is one of two mixes I make up- Spawn & Grow w/ Soilent Green added at 20% and Bottom Scratcher w/ the same 20% S. G. And it eats most of what I feed. I feed a few times during the day.

I made one mistake here, I have a sand bottom in the tank and I should have left it bare. But I set up the tanks before deciding to pull the clown to treat in one of the summer tanks. I should have left it bare bottom making it easier to see things and also to clean. Plus I have a limited number of buckets etc. So every time I vacuum or do a water change I have to bleach the any buckets and non-dedicated hose.

The one things that I cannot figure out is if the fish has something that normally can be spread to other fish, why not a single other fish in any of my tanks has the problem. There are 9 other clown loaches and a few large redline barbs in the tank and they all have been there for years. It make things a bit more complicated in terms of feeling like I have determined the problem correctly. The one thing I do know is the fish eats, I watch it do so and it still loses weight.

 

[Colin_T]

Has the medication expired?

Deworming medications need to be done weekly for 3 to 4 weeks to kill worm larvae that hatch from eggs. Tapeworm and round worm eggs can sit in the substrate for weeks and not hatch until the fish ingest them.

It's unlikely to be an internal bacterial infection because they kill the fish quickly.

The only other reason a fish won't grow is if it's a runt (genetically weaker and will never grow).

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I should have posted before now. Life is just a bit hectic lately.

The fish is in medication free water now. I finished the round of Prazi. over 8 days ago. I have been feeding the fish regularly and at least twice a day. It appears to eat a fair amount of the food but sometine does not touch it and I have to vac. it out.

This fish is very skinny. Below its spine it has a very sunken body. Any size healthy clown I have ever had, or currently have, has been on the plump side. The sick fish is not even close.

The problem is trying to decide if it is gaining any weight and what it is or isn't pooping. The last few water changes and tank vacs. have sucked up a lot of gunk from thesand and also from the Poret cubefilters. There is gunk on the driftwood I suck off as well. I see no clearly identifiable parasites in the bucket when I clean the tank. I also see nothing I can say for sure is fish poop. The fish may be pooping out dead parasites, dead tapeworm parts or it could be uneaten food. It could be a mix of these things. Maybe it has the equivalent of fishy diarrhea.

I think I will do the 3 week wait and then do one more round with the flubendazole as suggested by Dr. Harrison. After that I need to reclaim the tank for its originally intended purpose. I need the filters in it as well and I am not sure if it is safe to just reuse them or if I need to bleach them and then to recycle them.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Did a vac., not much came up. Changed about 50% of the water and did about a 3/8 teaspoon dose of Flubendazole.
"Add 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of the 10% medication for each 20 gallons of tank water." I estimate there is about 15-16 gal. of water in the tank.

The 20L H.tank has its back and left end glass painted black and the right end is blocked off as well. Plus it is the under tank of a two tank stand. So it is a dimly lit tank which makes it difficult to determine if the clown is bulkng up some or not.

 

[Colin_T]

To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

There are 3.785 litres in a US Gallon
There are 4.5 litres in a UK gallon

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating with chemicals or it will adsorb the medication and stop it working. You do not need to remove the carbon if you use salt.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sorry Colin, but that is too much work for me. I normally have 20 tanks going and in summers the nu,ber goes up[ by 5-8 tanks. So I have my own system which seems to work just fine. It works for wtaer changing and for dosing meds or ammonia for cycling etc.

I start with the gallons it is sold as. So I have 5 x 20L on the terrce now. One is divided, the rest have a shallow sand bottom, assorted wood and rocks an some have a small cave or two. So here is what I do.

I start with 20 gals and then reduce that by 10 -20% depending on my estimation of what amount of water the contents displace. On average I end up using 85%. But many tanks hold a bit less water due to lots of rocks and wood (pleco breeding).

So for water changes I work in the halfway point betwen about 1.4 inch above or below the end of the frame. This actually will mean the split is more like 40-45 below and 55-60 above. So I just change to the midway point and am happy with whatever the actual volumes are.

For meds I use the % estimate and apply it to the dosage. I do not care if I am 5% over or under the recommended dosage as I doubt it will reall matter. At 10% I might be more worried. So I will slightly under dose with anything that is very strong when that would be an issue. There I would rather be short some than long some.

About the only thing I actually measure as exactly as I can is how much dry ammonium chloride I need to be using. It is easy for a bigger tank but where it gets tricky is when I want to replace the contents of a bottle of Dr. Tim's Amonium Cloride. I am trying to make about 1200 ml such that 1 ml creates about 2.5 - 3 ppm on an API text kit which uses the Total Ion scale. I am adding the Fritz product where there directions state that about 1 teaspoon, or 4.5 grams, will produce 4 ppm using the nitrogen scale in 100 gallons of water. (I have a triple beam gram scale that is in .1 gram increments.) Warning- do not consume mind altering substances when trying to calculate 1200 ml of water and how much NA4Cl powder to add to the bottle.

Since I live in the states we only have US gallons. It is illegal to import them from the UK as they weigh too much.

And the above is what makes this hobby so much fun. There are always multiple ways to do things which are effective for each of us. Some things we have to measure with great care and others a decent estimate is perfectly fine as well. What we must do is to learn to know which is which.

p.s. If I need to know close to exactly how much water is in a tank, I set up the tank and then measure the water as it goes in. If it is planted then I add the plants along the way and whatever effect on volume they have is built in. But I have to say my estimation methods have mostly worked well. One bio-farm start-up got away from me for about a week.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here are the directions for dosing Flubendazole from Dr. Harrison's site:

Add 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of the 10% medication for each 20 gallons of tank water. It may float
for a while, but it needs to be mixed* into the tank water, swirl it in to dissolve. Hydra take two
to three days to remove. Hexamita and other intestinal Protozoa may take three doses to remove
completely over five to seven days to complete. Three days after the first treatment change the
water again. Add another dose of 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon/20 gal. to the fresh water. Change the
water a second time after 5 to 7 days.

This should take care of everything. A third dose after three or four weeks will insure the
treatment, but usually isn’t necessary unless symptoms reappear.

So what I did was the first two additions at 10% and during the 3-4 week wait after the the first 2 doses, I waited a week or so and did the Prazi. Then I waited ablut a week and I am no doing the 3rd Flubendazol. I was not at all sure the fish was gaining weight. Plus I may have been vacuuming a lot of uneaten Repashy food.

It turns out the fish is happy eating the last of my kensfish custom stick mix. I began upping the feeding to 3 -4 times a day at several hour intervals. The food disappears without a trace and I am sure it is being eaten.

I can say for sure that the fish has put on bulk. I will likely do a big water change next Monday. I am going away for the weekend and Friday would too soon. After that if the fish continues to do well it will go back into the 150 twith the rest of the clown herd.

I would also tend to think that the filters should not be harboring anything nasty as it is all internal to the fish and it is the killing of parasites or a tapeworm that should mean nothing reproductive is at work or the fish would not be gaining weight but would have been reinfected? I will let the tank run empty and will be dosing ammonia to insure the filters remain well cycled.

 

[AlexT]

Since I live in the states we only have US gallons. It is illegal to import them from the UK as they weigh too much.