Tough fin rot case

[Susan Perpich]

On 4/5 I added a whole bottle of Safe Start. I waited 3 days and checked his water. The ph went from 8 to 8.8, ammonia stayed the same at .25, nitrate stayed the same at zero and nitrite went from zero to 40. Just want to make sure these numbers are ok. If not what should I do?

 

[Essjay]

nitrate stayed the same at zero and nitrite went from zero to 40

I hope that's a typo and you have nitrite and nitrate the wrong way round. If nitrite was 40, the fish would be dead.

What are using to test ammonia? If it is the API liquid tester, what light are you using to read the colour? It is well known that fluorescent lights (including compact fluorescent energy saving bulbs) can make the liquid in the tube look greener than it really is. The best lighting is daylight, but not in direct sunlight.
If the reading really is 0.25, that's too high at pH 8.8. Ammonia exists in two forms in water - ammonia and the not nearly as toxic ammonium. The amount in each form depends on the temperature and pH of the water. The higher the pH, the more that is in the toxic form, and your pH is quite high. Our test kits measure both forms giving a reading for 'total ammonia'. Using an on-line free ammonia calculator, at your pH a total ammonia reading of 0.25 gives an ammonia level over the safe limit.

Nitrate at 40 ppm is too high. You need to keep it under 20 ppm by doing water changes.

 

[FishGuest5123]

It could just be in the 2nd stage of the cycle with nitrites rising. You’ll have to do a water change to get them down. I wouldn’t worry about the PH too much right now because it can be all over the place during cycling. The nitrites may still rise some but soon you should see nitrates. My ammonia always shows .25 because of my water source. In my case it’s really ammonium, not ammonia.

 

[Susan Perpich]

I retested everything and I did mix them up. Nitrites are zero and nitrates are 40. Ammonia was the same at .25 and PH was 8 not 8.8. Should I do a water change at this point or wait?

 

[Essjay]

At pH 8.0 the free ammonia level is just within the safe limit, but make sure it gets no higher. But water changes will get the nitrate level down to a safe amount (under 20 ppm) unless your tap water is near the legal limit for nitrate.

If you've had the tank since November it should be cycled by now. Provided the new water is dechlorinated, water changes won't uncycle a tank, they are your best friend if there is ammonia or nitrite in the water. However certain medications can uncycle the tank by killing the 'good' bacteria, and this may have happened in this case.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Essjay- have you read all of the posts? We suspect the tank isn’t cycled because of all the water changes and meds. OP-you may not see nitrites with the Safe Start. If that is the case, you may be cycled. Do as essjay said with a water change to reduce the nitrates. Test a couple more days and if things look steady, you are cycled. Then keep water super clean for fin/tail rot. Keep us posted!

 

[Essjay]

I was trying to explain that it wasn't water changes that caused the 'good' bacteria to die off but that medication could have killed them. The tank has been running long enough to have cycled (6 months), but with all the different medications that have been added anything could have happened to the bacteria. I was concerned that someone else reading the thread might come away with the impression that water changes kill the bacteria and then that person would not do any water changes during a fish-in cycle.
But I didn't express it very well in my last post, sorry if it sounded different.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I was trying to explain that it wasn't water changes that caused the 'good' bacteria to die off but that medication could have killed them. The tank has been running long enough to have cycled (6 months), but with all the different medications that have been added anything could have happened to the bacteria. I was concerned that someone else reading the thread might come away with the impression that water changes kill the bacteria and then that person would not do any water changes during a fish-in cycle.
But I didn't express it very well in my last post, sorry if it sounded different.

Oh, gotcha. Thanks for explaining and I can see your reasoning.

 

[Colin_T]

At pH 8.0 the free ammonia level is just within the safe limit, but make sure it gets no higher.

Any ammonia is toxic in water with a pH above 7.0. The higher the pH, the more toxic the ammonia and the more damage it does to fish and other aquatic organisms.

 

[Essjay]

I based my comment on information in the fish-in cycling thread on here http://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/ . Using the same on-line ammonia calculator, free ammonia is just below the critical 0.02 at pH 8.0

 

[gfish56]

I agree with Colin Any free ammonia in a tank is toxic to fish. Being just below "critical" doesn't make it less toxic to the fish. At lower levels it just takes longer to witness the damage

 

[FishGuest5123]

Not to complicate this situation any but we don’t know if this is free ammonia or not. There is a specific test kit that will tell you that quite easily. Also, poor water conditions take time to show affects in a fish. This tank is being cycled and current water status is only temporary. The Safe Start itself helps protect the fish during this process to a degree. So what is the best action to take at this point to achieve the cycle? My vote is to do a 50% water change and see what happens. Good luck.

 

[Susan Perpich]

I did a 50% water change on 4/8 and PH was still 8, ammonia was .25, nitrite was zero and nitrate went down to 40. The next day I did a 25% water change and Ph was the same, ammonia stayed at .25, nitrite was zero and nitrate was 5. Going to test the water again today. He seems good. Nothing changed with him. Still eating and active. I was just wondering how do I know if he's getting better and how long does it take before I start to notice?

 

[Susan Perpich]

Water test numbers for today are....Ph went up to 8.2, ammonia is zero, nitrite is zero and nitrate is between 20ppm and 40ppm. I'm guess I should do another water change to get the nitrate down. Is that correct?

 

[FishGuest5123]

The key here is determining if the .25 ammonia is free ammonia or as I suspect, ammonium. Ammonium is relatively safe. If that’s the case, your other numbers look good. Then, just do water changes (I would do 2/week) and keep Tank clean. It takes time for rot to heal but you should start seeing clear tissue growing which is new tissue. My aquarium water always tests at .25 ammonia. However, I use an extra test kit, Seachem Free & Total which indicates 0 of free ammonia. I also use an ammonia alert on my tanks by Seachem. It lasts about a year and quickly alerts you if any free ammonia in the water. My is always in the safe zone although my API test kit indicates .25ppm ammonia. You may want to invest in these 2 items. Relatively inexpensive and worth the money. As essjay was attempting to explain above, a PH of 8 still keeps the ammonia level at more ammonium than ammonia. However, he indicated this was free ammonia and it is not. Due to the fact that your tank has been cycling, your PH may be a little higher than normal. Continue to test and hopefully you will see the PH drop a little. This You Tube video may help explain better. Good luck!