Total Newbie That Needs Some Advice

[Sparkle]

I’m a total utter newbie to all things fishy. There is a nearby pet shop, but their knowledge of fish is limited and I don’t know anyone who has experience with fish.

Before purchasing anything I am doing some research and would appreciate some feedback on my ideas. I’ve been researching via many different websites and books, and the recommended requirements for each species are not consistent. I’m a bit perplexed.

I want to some smallish (4-8cm maximum size), community friendly, reasonably hardy fish. I’m planning a total of 16 to 24 fish (4-6 of each species). I am considering Platys, Guppies, Corydora’s, 1 mystery snail and another fish species? The water is to be slightly alkaline (around 7.2), temperature (24 C or 75 F) and medium hard.

I’ve read into cycling, and expect it to take a few weeks before all the fishy’s settle in. I’m also buying a small quarantine tank.

My questions?
• Is a 165 litre (36 UK Gallon) tank a suitable size for 16 – 24 fish? When I read recommendations, I not sure whether the size is based on the tank size or the water capacity of the tank. Air, filter, plants, wood and sand take up some room.
• The livebearers prefer more alkaline, harder water. Are the Cory’s going to be OK? Which Cory’s are more tolerant to these conditions?
• For the initial fish, should I get a couple of Platy’s or Cory’s?
• I’d like to add a 4th type of fish, and not sure what I should get. I’ve thought of Swordtails, but they might be too big and heard they may bully the Guppies. I’ve also thought a Celebes Rainbow or small? Mollies, but it is recommended that they need some salt, and Cory’s are intolerant to it.

Sparkle from Australia

 

[poopsydrew]

I wish i could help more but i am pretty new as well. However, i have fallen in love with corys and although different species and the rarer ones can be sensitive, you will be fine with some bronze corys. just make sure you get at least three as they need to be in groups. Plus, they will play with each other and they are extremely peaceful. As far as size they will get maybe 3 inches (sorry from US) but mine never got that big, just depends i guess. Sorry i cant help more but definatley get corys as they are great for beginners and they are adorable!!

Oh i think i can also say to avoid swordtails and mollys if you are going to have guppys the swordtails can get aggressive and males can get 5-6 inches long with their tail. I would get corys instead of platys as i think they are hardier. Mollys like you said prefer slightly brackish water and your cories will not tolerate this. For other fish suggestions, danios are usually good small beginner group (keep them in groups) maybe some species of the tetras, i have some beautiful serpae tetras that i have never had problems with and they are also very small. So hope that helps as well, i am sure one of the more experienced fish enthusiast will come along with better and more detailed advice. Hope i was able to guide you in the right direction!

 

[GoldLenny]

I’m a total utter newbie to all things fishy. There is a nearby pet shop, but their knowledge of fish is limited and I don’t know anyone who has experience with fish.

Although I am sure there are some pet store employees with long-term fish keeping, I haven't personally ever met one. LOL You will get much better advice from the experienced fish keepers out here.

Before purchasing anything I am doing some research and would appreciate some feedback on my ideas. I’ve been researching via many different websites and books, and the recommended requirements for each species are not consistent. I’m a bit perplexed.

Unfortunately, there are many websites that give bad information as well so you are doing the right thing by checking things out here. A good place to find good profiles on each fish you are considering is http/fish.mongabay.com Put in the name of the fish and you should find a well written profile on most tropical fish. The profile will have suggestions for the water parameters (which will tell you wheter the fish likes soft or hard water, pH range, temperature, etc.), SC-Species Compatibility (which will tell you recommended tank mates), Feeding suggestions, tank size suggestions, etc. There are also some good specialty sites for fish like catfish and cichlids.

I want to some smallish (4-8cm maximum size), community friendly, reasonably hardy fish. I’m planning a total of 16 to 24 fish (4-6 of each species). I am considering Platys, Guppies, Corydora’s, 1 mystery snail and another fish species? The water is to be slightly alkaline (around 7.2), temperature (24 C or 75 F) and medium hard.

The best thing to do is find out what your tap/source water is like and then try to get fish that fit in with your tap water parameters. I just wrote a blog article on how to establish your tap/source water baseline. Click my new blog on establishing your tap/source water baseline, http/goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/05/find...r-baseline.html and do these tests on your water and post your results. I am addressing your stocking questions later.. but you can read more about stocking guidelines here... http/goldlenny.blogspot.com/2007/02/new-...lace-1-per.html

I’ve read into cycling, and expect it to take a few weeks before all the fishy’s settle in. I’m also buying a small quarantine tank.

You should "Fishless Cycle" your new tank rather than using your fish for the cycling phase. This will keep your fish from possibly suffering long term health problems related to ammonia/nitrite poisoning and pH swings. There is a pinned topic on Fishless Cycling.

My questions?
• Is a 165 litre (36 UK Gallon) tank a suitable size for 16 – 24 fish? When I read recommendations, I not sure whether the size is based on the tank size or the water capacity of the tank. Air, filter, plants, wood and sand take up some room.

This depends on the size of fish you are talking about. If you wanted 24 fish that would be no larger than 1" as adults, you would have no problems. If you wanted 24 fish that are going to grow to 3' each, you would have major problems. Read my blog article on a "Better set of guidelines to replace the 1" per gallon fish-killing rule" that is so often incorrectly used. I gave you the link earlier.

• The livebearers prefer more alkaline, harder water. Are the Cory’s going to be OK? Which Cory’s are more tolerant to these conditions?

Check out the profiles on your anticipated fish and make sure your water is good for them.

• For the initial fish, should I get a couple of Platy’s or Cory’s?

If you fishless cycle your tank first, you will be able to add all of your fish at the same time, rather than a couple each month. This is also better so you will have less chance of infecting your tank with new fish that might have some type of sickness. It is also good to have an extra 10G tank or plastic tub to use as a quarantine/hospital tank if any of your fish do get sick so they can be treated separately before adding them to your main tank.

• I’d like to add a 4th type of fish, and not sure what I should get. I’ve thought of Swordtails, but they might be too big and heard they may bully the Guppies. I’ve also thought a Celebes Rainbow or small? Mollies, but it is recommended that they need some salt, and Cory’s are intolerant to it.

The SC paragraph on each profile will give you suggestions for suitable tankmates so I'm sure you will get plenty of ideas for other fish from Mongabay profiles.

Sparkle from Australia

I hope you end up with a "Sparkle"ing good tank!

 

[dwarfgourami]

If you find yourself with hard alkaline water suitable for platies, either bronze or peppered corys are quite hardy and able to cope with these conditions. Corys are peaceful and easy-going, just make sure they cannot hurt themselves on the substrate, either sand or smooth pea gravel will be fine. And that they are in a school- at least 3, but 6 is good.

For platies, it is a good idea to think about sex ratios before you buy. Male platies are highly oversexed so if you have a mixed-sex group you should keep at least 2-3 females per male to give them a break from his attentions- and you will end up with a lot of fry this way. An all-male group disposes of the risk of population growth, but you need to keep at least 5-6 to spread any tetosterone-driven aggression. A more peaceful option is all females, then you can keep any number from two upwards; you may still get some fry as they often come pregnant from the shop, but it will die down eventually.

Do, do, do do the fishless cycle! It saves a lot of unhappiness, and rdd's pinned topic at the top of this forum gives an excellent introduction. Once this is completed, and you have done your big water change, you could then happily introduce the platies and the corys.

Then you could introduce the last lot of fish after the tank has been up and running for a few weeks. I have no experience of Celebes rainbow, only know they are schooling, so you would need to make room for at least 6, but that shouldn't be a problem. You could end up with 6 corys, 6 rainbows, 3 platies and 1 snail and that should be fine. As my book says they are sensitive to poor water, maybe wait with adding the rainbows until after a few months.

 

[Sparkle]

Thanks poopsydrew, GoldLenny, dwarfgourami

I haven’t purchased the tank yet. I’d rather think about what fish I want to put in it before determining what size to get.

The 1 inch per gallon rule, I suppose that’s US gallons? All the conversions between different imperial and metric measurements are a bit confusing. I’ve recalculated into a metric formula: each centimeter of small fish requires 1.5 litres.

I think I might go for a bigger tank, say 212 litres (56 US Gallons) and have up to 20 fish. Given that each fish is 7 centimeters (2.75 inches) and lined up to make 140 centimeters (55.1 inches). The length/width/height of the tank is 92 X 46 X 51 cm (36.2 X 18.1 X 20.1 inches). There is another unit that has greater height - an extra 10 cm (3.9 inches), but I don’t think the extra height would be much of a benefit.

I’ll purchase a master test kit, and test Sydney’s water over a period of time. It’s chlorinated to the hilt. With up to 20 fish, I'll just stick to 3 species of fish. I think I’ll still get 6 Corydora Aeneus (3 Bronze + 3 Albino’s). I’m attracted to the Guppies and Platies as they come in a good variety of colours, but will consider something else if Sydney water is soft and acidic.

I don’t really want fry growing up, but wouldn’t mind occasional fry. If so, I want the fry to be eaten (hopefully this isn’t too cruel). I'm considering a possible assortment of 6 male Guppies, 1 male Platy and 5 female Platies. I think it might be better to have breeding Platies than Guppies, as Guppies could breed like rabbits. I get the impression that the Corys are less likely to breed.

I’ll look around for some ammonia in the supermarket, and read more into fishless cycling. I’ll put the snail into the quarantine tank initially for a couple of weeks, as I don’t want baby snails in the main tank. The local pet shop has the aquatic plants for sale in a separate tank from the fish, so additional unwanted fish/snails are less likely to occur.

Sparkle From Australia

 

[poopsydrew]

Thanks poopsydrew, GoldLenny, dwarfgourami

I haven’t purchased the tank yet. I’d rather think about what fish I want to put in it before determining what size to get.

The 1 inch per gallon rule, I suppose that’s US gallons? All the conversions between different imperial and metric measurements are a bit confusing. I’ve recalculated into a metric formula: each centimeter of small fish requires 1.5 litres.

I think I might go for a bigger tank, say 212 litres (56 US Gallons) and have up to 20 fish. Given that each fish is 7 centimeters (2.75 inches) and lined up to make 140 centimeters (55.1 inches). The length/width/height of the tank is 92 X 46 X 51 cm (36.2 X 18.1 X 20.1 inches). There is another unit that has greater height - an extra 10 cm (3.9 inches), but I don’t think the extra height would be much of a benefit.

I’ll purchase a master test kit, and test Sydney’s water over a period of time. It’s chlorinated to the hilt. With up to 20 fish, I'll just stick to 3 species of fish. I think I’ll still get 6 Corydora Aeneus (3 Bronze + 3 Albino’s). I’m attracted to the Guppies and Platies as they come in a good variety of colours, but will consider something else if Sydney water is soft and acidic.

I don’t really want fry growing up, but wouldn’t mind occasional fry. If so, I want the fry to be eaten (hopefully this isn’t too cruel). I'm considering a possible assortment of 6 male Guppies, 1 male Platy and 5 female Platies. I think it might be better to have breeding Platies than Guppies, as Guppies could breed like rabbits. I get the impression that the Corys are less likely to breed.

I’ll look around for some ammonia in the supermarket, and read more into fishless cycling. I’ll put the snail into the quarantine tank initially for a couple of weeks, as I don’t want baby snails in the main tank. The local pet shop has the aquatic plants for sale in a separate tank from the fish, so additional unwanted fish/snails are less likely to occur.

Sparkle From Australia

No problem friend! I dont believe it is cruel to let the fish eat the fry and dont worry they almost always will depending on the species. i have found if you let them do that you might just end up with a few that make it anyway. That way your not overstcoked and you dont have to worry about raising fry. But no, i dont think its cruel because it happens in the wild all the time. anyone else feel differently?

 

[Underwurlde]

The general rule is 1 inch per US Gallon.

Convert simply using google.

Try directly typing this in : 36.2x18.1x20.1 inches cubed in litres

215 Litres...

Done. Seamless.
Easier to always use the 'standard' measurements:
When talking above volume, default to US Gallons.
When taking about fish length, use inches.

Oh, and always state WHAT the units are! Saves errors.

Andy

PS Excellent summation here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=194361

 

[orange shark]

I would consider getting a small shoal of neon tetras, they are really colourful and great too watch when in a shoal

 

[lilfishie]

I would consider getting a small shoal of neon tetras, they are really colourful and great too watch when in a shoal

cardinals would probably be better, they are more hardy than neone but look pretty much the same

 

[GoldLenny]

Thanks poopsydrew, GoldLenny, dwarfgourami

The 1 inch per gallon rule, I suppose that’s US gallons? All the conversions between different imperial and metric measurements are a bit confusing. I’ve recalculated into a metric formula: each centimeter of small fish requires 1.5 litres.

Sparkle From Australia

The "1 inch per gallon rule" is a complete farce. It only works for fish that stay under 3" as full grown adults. For example, you cannot put an 18" common pleco in an 18 gallon tank. Read the blog article on better but still simple guidelines that I posted earlier. Now, the way the 1" rule would work is if you considered cubic inches of body mass. This would not be easy to do though.

For example, a round-bodied goldfish that reaches 8" body length at full size is actually equal in body mass to hundreds of 1" baby goldfish. A goldfish increases it's body mass by eight times for every time it doubles its length. A 2" goldfish is equal to eight 1" goldfish. A 4" goldfish is equal to eight 2" goldfish or 64 1" goldfish. A 6" goldfish is equal to over a hundred 1" goldfish. An 8" goldfish is equal to nearly 500 1" goldfish. This gives you an idea of how bad the 1" rule is.

 

[mark.w.jones]

As a basic benchmark for beginners without the experience of looking after different fish, the 1" per US gallon rule is an easy to follow and a simple starting point. Whilst I don't deny it has limits. For slim bodied, easy to keep fish under 3" (which lets be honest is what most beginners will buy) it ensures a suitable of tolerence with regard to not overstocking.

 

[dwarfgourami]

The "1 inch per gallon rule" is a complete farce. It only works for fish that stay under 3" as full grown adults. For example, you cannot put an 18" common pleco in an 18 gallon tank. Read the blog article on better but still simple guidelines that I posted earlier. Now, the way the 1" rule would work is if you considered cubic inches of body mass. This would not be easy to do though.

It would be if it were used in the way you suggest, but I have to say that in my 2 years plus on this forum I have never seen any member suggesting that this is a rule you can use for plecos or goldfish, or indeed with anything but small-bodied fish in the 1-2 inch range. Which is what the present discussion was about, the OP is not asking about 18 inch plecos but about corydoras and similar small relatively low-bioload fish. The example of how it is invalidated by the 18 inch pleco pops up at least once a fortnight though, heigh-ho. But I have yet to hear of a fishkeeper who has actually, in real life, employed it in this ridiculous manner everybody keeps going on about.

Like many other members, I never mention this rule without also pointing out that apart from only being useful for small-bodied fish, it is only the first step in a series of calculations that then have to include factors like territoriality, schooling needs, levels of the tank occupied, dietary requirements etc. When used like this, I don't see how it can be called a fish-killing rule, I've certainly never killed any fish by it.

I don't see how a guideline (which is all I will admit this is) becomes a farce because it needs to be qualified. That applies to most guidelines in life.

 

[Underwurlde]

General rule like I said.

Guess I should have followed that up with something like 'once you've found what you like, thread up a new discussion on what you're considering for stocking'...

 

[vinylman]

I would consider getting a small shoal of neon tetras, they are really colourful and great too watch when in a shoal

cardinals would probably be better, they are more hardy than neone but look pretty much the same

I wouldn't add Neons or Cardinals for a good two months after the tank has cycled. Cardinals are generally more hardy than Neons.

 

[Sparkle]

Thanks everyone for all the recommendations.

I was a bit too busy this weekend to get the tank, so it will be next weekend. The pet shop in which I will purchase the tank is rather large, and primarily specializes in aquariums. Their website states that it can take up to 3 weeks for the tank to be made, so it will be while before I start up and complete the fishless cycle.

At least now, I’ve got an approximation on the size of tank needed. When it comes to fish purchasing time I'll probably get only about 14-16 fish to start with and add on later if need be. I get the impression that some people get a tank, then buy some fish, then work that their tank is too small, then they need to get a larger tank. I’d rather start off with a tank that is too large.

When I’ve got things together and the fishless cycle nearing completion, I’ll come back to work out fish to get. I am pretty keen on the Cory’s though.

Sparkle from Australia