Too Many Water Changes?

[Winterlily]

I seem to have hit mid-cycle in my fish-in cycle (just 1 Betta in there) ... ammonia has been 0 (so hard to tell if it's truly yellow or a HINT of green on the API liquid test kit... see my post #12 in this thread for a pic of this morning's test results to see the color I mean if you'd like! - It's actually been a bit more true yellow than that the rest of the day) but nitrite, which had been 0 up until yesterday, has been climbing steadily higher. This morning, it was a darker blue (just under the .25 I'd say), so I did a big water change - about 80%. Late morning/early afternoon it was near 0, but by mid-afternoon was that darker blue again, just under .25. Another water change, about 70%. This evening around 8 PM it was again darker blue so another big water change. Tonight, just before I went to bed, paranoid worrier me decided to test again (I keep reading on here how nitrite can spike quickly and in a really short period of time the fish are in trouble), and in just 5 hours it's the highest it's been - a true blue-purple now, looking like the color on the test strip for .25. I did another big (80% or so) change.

Am I overdoing this? I'm working on the assumption that I should do what I have to to keep that level at 0? Or are these multiple-daily big water changes as bad/worse for him?

Please advise - I sure don't want to be thinking I'm helping him but actually be making things worse somehow...

Thanks ahead of time!

 

[Rooster]

The cycle NEEDS ammonia to run, you maybe depriving the filter of food !!!!! Please read the stickies on cycles.

 

[ellena]

I've got 2 tanks with betta fish in cycles going at the mo, so I was interested in the answer to this. I've read the sticky, but thought I'd have another look, just to make sure. What I hadn't noticed first time is that it says to do 50% water changes to keep stats below 0.25ppm. I had been trying to keep them to 0 and wondering how the filter bacteria were going to live on that!
I've discovered there is a whole range of readings below 0.25 on the API test kits, but I guess all of them are OK for the fish

 

[Winterlily]

I am completely confused. Truly. I sure did read the stickies on cycling, particularly those stickies and posts on fish-in stuff, and I thought I understood that one should do as big of water changes as were needed to keep those levels really low so the fish didn't suffer needlessly and that it wouldn't affect the cycling process at all. Additionally, my ammonia levels are now (just the past 2 days) showing up as 0 BEFORE my water changes. I thought this is the way the cycle worked naturally ... that ammonia would, around mid-cycle, drop to undetectable as nitrite started to rise. (Isn't that because there are enough bacteria to deal with the ammonia, so it's no longer showing on my test?) I absolutely do not get it.

So, I'm supposed to leave these higher levels of nitrites alone - no water changes??

 

[waterdrop]

Think about this. Thousands of aquarists have big tanks with cycled biofilters that are mature. Those tanks have lots of big 'ol fish swimming around in them, right? We all know those gills are moving and those fish are peeing, right? Yet, we can run our API ammonia and nitrite tests at any point and see crystal clear yellow and crystal clear sky blue, right? I do it all the time in my tank and that's what I get. Its the sign of a perfectly working biofilter.

What's happening when we see this is that *plenty* of ammonia is moving from the fish to the Nitrosomonas and feeding them and yet our API ammonia test doesn't show us that. The test is *not* sensitive down at that level, but it *is* sensitive up at levels that begin to approach gill damage for our fish (0.25ppm level.) And all the while, those Nitrosomonas are munching ammonia, they are producing nitrite and feeding the Nitrospira, who are munching that and raising our nitrate level bit by bit.

The moral of the story is that we *shouldn't* have to worry about *seeing* the ammonia that's feeding our nitrogen cycle in a fish-in cycle. (The fact that we're constantly discussing -fishless- 5ppm cycles around here gets things confused to no end in our beginners section...)

Hopefully Rooster has played the perfect Devil's Advocate here that he likes to do! ..and brought out these paragraphs of mine. I -do- suppose you could -possibly- overdo it a bit if you changed so much water that it was staying like empty tap water all the time but I don't observe Winderlily doing quite that. I still think her little betta is producing enough and its staying around long enough to be bringing along a little crop of A-Bacs and N-Bacs matching the small load of the betta. The very fact that Lily is getting little sudden blips of nitrite(NO2) now is very indicative of progress in the fish-in cycle. Winterlily I think you're doing the right thing to be watchful of those little spikes but perhaps Rooster has done a good thing that will enourage you to not be quite so paranoid about it. A betta is a tough little critter and is not going to keel over from a short session of nitrite over 0.25ppm. Its not a neon!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Rooster]

Hopefully Rooster has played the perfect Devil's Advocate here that he likes to do!
~~waterdrop~~

Hey - thanks for noticing !!! lol

 

[Winterlily]

Thanks so much waterdrop - as usual a really great and understandable response. It's MUCH appreciated. And thanks too, Rooster, for reminding me, as waterdrop said, that I don't need to go ballistic over it all.

I -do- suppose you could -possibly- overdo it a bit if you changed so much water that it was staying like empty tap water all the time but I don't observe Winderlily doing quite that.

I hope I'm not! When I see the test go purple, I definitely do a water change. This afternoon, again (this moring too), it was purple - I'd say between the .25 and the .50 results - so hard to tell. I did, both times, a fairly substantial water change - like 70% or so - but I don't think that's bringing it to like empty tap water, even when it's multiple times a day, right? Course...... it's not STAYING at 0 for long.........

Gonna write in another post asking about what these nitrites are doing - they seem to be bouncing back FAST even after a fairly substantial water change. Not sure if that's normal or not.

Cycles. BLEH.

 

[Jabba]

The bacteria population actually changes for the resource available (unlike us humans) so you should see pretty much zero all the time unless you are changing stock levels radically upwards - in which case it can spike a little while the bacteria catch up.

If Nitrite lievels are climbing that means that ammonia is being converted - but the nitrite consumer population is non existant or too low.

70% change is too much unless you suspect a problem, I don't do any water change until the Nitrates pass 25ppm, then I take a call based on the nitrate level I read, generally 25% or so, occasionally 50% - it depends who in the house has been feeding (I travel a lot).

The moral is - base your water changes on Nitrate levels - but be careful with Nitrite - the higher the Ph the more lethal it is ... I wouldn't get too stressed unless it passed 12 to 15 ppm and kept going ... you certainly wouldn't want it above 10 for more than 7 days but it isn't the scary story some fish keepers would have you think.

 

[Winterlily]

Thanks Jabba... What nitrate levels should I be looking for? In other words, what kinds of numbers should tell me what about how much water to change? (You know, like, if nitrItes are between such-and-such, but nitrAtes are between such-and-such, I'd just do a 25% change" or whatever.) I'm so frighteningly clueless here!

 

[Jabba]

Don't worry we all start somewhere ...

I try to keep the Nitrates below 5ppm, clearly I cannot be constantly changing water, I also only check my stats once a week unless I suspect a problem brewing

What I do is wait until it passes or is close to 10ppm

5 to 10ppm = 25%
10 to 20ppm = 30% (A very rare event)
20ppm to 30ppm = 40% (A never happened event)

I try to target the Nitrate level being below 5ppm when I have finished.

It is better to do small changes than massive ones (causes less stress). So if things really are out of shape say more than 30ppm nitrate I would probably do 3 daily 25% changes until I got back to below 5ppm.

It is hard to be exact because you like me will probably have Nitrates in your tapwater so I recommend you take a reading for Nitrate before the water change, do a 25% change and do a Nitrate reading again and compare the two - this should give you a number by which 25% tapwater will depress the Nitrate level ... you can adjust up or down accordingly but really if you need to do more than 25% you need to start looking at the frequency of your water changes.

HOWEVER - if your nitrites aren't being consumed then you won't be seeing the Nitrate rising particularly quickly (Nitrates are a good indicator ot the Nitrate consuming bacterias work)

So base your changes on the Nitrite level instead - you MUST leave sime Nitrite there or the Nitrite consuming bacteria struggles to get going (they are much slower to establish than the Ammonia consuming bacteria) amd removing the Nitrite completely prevents this part of the cycle.

You will know when things are cooking because the Nitrite will disappear and the nitrates will begin to climb instead.

The secret for fish is stability, unstable conditions or large swings in short times causes stress.

 

[OldMan47]

You are doing the right thing Winterlily. As long as you are getting any nitrites or ammonia, you do as big a change as it takes to control both at less than 0.25 ppm. When things have settled out and the nitrates are the only thing left to worry about, a 50% water change would be unusually large unless you keep fish like discus that need very low nitrate water. Most fish don't mind any water where nitrates are below about 100 ppm and plants need some nitrates to grow at all. I add nitrate fertilizers to some of my planted tanks to keep the levels from dropping to zero and stopping all plant growth. Typical targets for planted tanks are 10 to 20 ppm of nitrates by adding fertilizers.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, agree, you are doing the right thing. While still in a fish-in cycle, ammonia and nitrite(NO2) are the things to focus on and you should try to only let these reach max levels of 0.25ppm. You do not have to water change them down to a test measurement of zero but you do want to set yourself up so they won't have risen to dangerous levels for the fish prior to you being able to water change again.

The sharp increase in the NO2 spikes you are seeing is reflective of the increased size and performance of your ammonia processing bacteria, so that's a good thing. The nitrite processing bacteria will catch up eventually.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Winterlily]

Oh good, thanks, guys! I feel so much better knowing I'm not doing something bad for the little guy that I had thought was a good thing! Good - I'll keep on as I am, then.

...but you do want to set yourself up so they won't have risen to dangerous levels for the fish prior to you being able to water change again.

But how, waterdrop? How do I do that? Today, for example, nitrite was flying upward from pretty nearly 0 (after a change) to 1.0 in just 5 hours. It went from 0 to .50 in 3 hours in the afternoon. ? How do I keep that from happening, as you say? I hope I'm not missing something important I'm supposed to be doing?

 

[OldMan47]

You might try cutting back on feeding a bit. Less food means less ammonia being produced and less nitrites from processing the ammonia. If you can get close to zero on nitrites and ammonia, measure again the next time you could even think about a water change and if levels are back up do another water change. It is not always possible to avoid levels above 0.25 ppm if your fish stock level is at all heavy.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, agree with the above. Its the kind of thing where you want to watch and be careful but you also in a sense have to relax and not let if bother you too much as you don't have a lot of control over it. Think about what those numbers are really saying.. even the higher amount we're talking about, 0.25ppm, is a quarter of one part amongst a million parts.. that's a little crazy if you think about it, of -course- its going to appear to jump around! Its just these tiny amounts jiggling about and we're taking snapshots of them from time to time and trying to interpret what's going on. Your betta is much better off having someone dedicated like you taking concerned looks off and on in a day, compared to many poor bettas out there in little cups being subjected to terribly high toxin levels, so that should put it in a little better perspective.

~~waterdrop~~