To Dsb....or To Not Dsb, That Is The Question

Steve H.

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Hi all.
I have been lurking the southern portion of this forum for awhile now. Reading all the journals every last word in the MARC....and no I was not scared away.
I've got this project in my head, and eventually I will get it going.

I will be setting a reef tank up in a 46 gallon bow front with a 20gallon long as a sump.

Now...I'm going to be bigger than a Nano, but still not all that big. I do plan on a 4" DSB in the refugium by about 16" long(unless I go with miracle mud).

Do I go with 4" in the display?

Or, do I follow Nano school of thought and do a shallow sand bed??

Thanks for any direction
 
Personally I used 40 lbs of LS in my 34g RSM. I would go for somewhere in between a deep sand bed a and shallow sand bed. I personally dont like using a shallow bed in the MT. For me I see it as bottleneck for certain livestock. Little tip, make sure to have rock base touching glass before the sand goes in. I regret not doing that now. But again that is strictly my opinion. Sounds great tho! maybe some LR in the sump as well? Also do you plan to run a reverse light cycle on the sump? If you have enough room you could pack pump/charcoal/skimmer in one part and chaeto/LR/LS in the other compartment, just a thought. Sounds great tho, make a journal we love journals! And if you ever updgade the main tank (whill will most likely happen....sigh) you can always use the 40g as a sump and the 10g as a q-tank if you ever have the desire. Lots and lots of options!
 
Thanks for the advice!!

I do plan on a reverse light cycle in the sump...if not 24hour lighting. A refugium is my main driver for setting up a sump. The added water and a place to hide additional equipment is an added bonus.

The sump will be 3 stages with the refugium being the second stage, and the largest of all three.

I'm a long way from starting a journal. Probably about 2 months out. I am in the research phase, as well as collecting and buiding all the necessary equipment.
Im big into the DIY side of the hobby. Building the sump right now, and I plan on doing my own skimmer. Not that I'm really trying to save all that much money, I just find building the things I need as enjoyable as keeping and setting up the system. Even if it doesn't work as well as store bought.

I still need a lot of equipment...lights, pumps, rock, sand. It will take me awhile to collect all of that. Wanted to do DYI LED lighting, but it seems to be more complicated than it has to be for some reason???
 
I would make sure your DIY skimmer is effictive, skimmers tend to be a very important role in filtration and keeping the gunk out. And hmmm, I've seen threads with walkthroughs on DIY light systems. Might wanna google some walkthroughs, but if anything needs to be effictive for a REEF system it would have to be skimmer and lights. So make sure its dont right or you'll spend more money replacing your livestock/corals than if you bought it storebrand. Also look into used equipment, many people break their tanks down and sell everything dirt cheap!. awesome idea on sump with the sections. I had a 300g tank with a 175g sump that I sectioned off and used acryllic sheets drilled and cut by home depot for the section dividers. If you end up with excess space I would def add extra LR for more filtration in the sump. I dont use bio media filters such as bio balls in my 34g due to extra charcoal bags and excess LR for the volume. According to red sea you should have 23lbs of live rock for my model, I think I have close to 40lbs. But keep posting ideas I'd love to see your DIY projects and see where it takes you. You can get quite innovative with that stuff.

If you really like DIY projects then I would consider some type of pump/piping system for top offs and water changes that goes into the sump. Not only is it an innovative project but it takes a lot of maintence off your hands when you can just turn a knob and let the water flow in. But its your tank and you seem to have some stuff figured out so have at it and best of luck to you. (seriously post your DIY projects, I'm very interested)
 
I was thinking about adding some LR to the sump. I am thinking about 80 lbs total for the system.
I don't know if I will be able to get all of that into the MT.

I want to get as much as possible in the MT because I really want the sump dedicated to the removal of Nitrates and Phosphates.

My thinking is to have the cycle happening in the MT. Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate in the main display. 4" DSB and the right CC to start breaking down Nitrates in the main display before it heads to the sump. And, then the sump will help out cleaning up as many Nitrates and phosphates as possible before returning back to the MT.

I guess my worry would be that I am bringing the cycle down to the sump as well, and would be creating Nitrates in the sump. I guess if it was in the first stage the skimmer and refuge might help, but not to sure...
 
In my research of the DSB I have come accross many opinions as to the pro's and con's of utilizing one in an aquarium set-up. I have attached a link which helped me make the decision to apply a DSB in my middle sized MR set-up. I would not apply this to a Nano set-up as water changes, HOB refugiums, and skimmers would all be easy enugh to do...and a 4" DSB would take up the majority of the volume in that sized tank.

But, since my tank is not quite Nano and not quite large volume I was a little unsure as if I should apply a DSB. Below is a link to one of the many 'Pro DSB' sites I have visited over the past couple of days if anyone is interested.



http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html



Thanks!

I am still open to opinions if there are any that contridict what I have found in my google research...Can't believe everything you read on the net. ;)
 
If i'm not mistaken I believe the sump and the tank are hooked together, water flows into sump from MT and then from sump to MT. If the MT is cycling so will the sumps water because it is the same water. But the LR cultivates bacteria that breaks down the bad stuff (ammonia, nitrites, and doesn't allow nitrates to accumulate like bio media such as bio balls and bio rings), so I would think the more LR the better! and you are correct, 80lbs of LR will probably be to much for the MT, speaking as if I were you which I'm not I would add 60 lbs of LR to MT or however much is needed to make your tank look the way you want it to and then add the excess to the sump which will allow maximum LR filtration without taking up the volume of your MT. Depending on how many sections you have in your sump you could go with a few diff setups for maximum removal of the bad stuff to maintain the water quality. Personally I wouldn't add any bio media if your going with 80 lbs of LR. In my tank I have 0 bio media. As to the sections you could have the first section containing the charcoal, skimmer, heater, pumps and all the equipment and depending on how the water flow is working in the sump you could set it up so that the water flows into the second chamber at one central point via hole drilled in the divider with a pvc pipe in the driller hole that's wide enough for ample water flow, then you could stick a mechanical filter in the pvc pipe for collecting unwated materials while allowing water flow. And if you have room for two more sections you could add chaeto into the second chamber, which would be a small chamber since chaeto doesn't really take up all that much room (chaeto would help big time of the removal of certain bacterias), then the third chamber could hold some substrate and your LR and allow you to grow corals and foods on the reverse light schedule that you'll have setup for the sump, you kinda need LR for cultivating things so that critters have places to hide and corals have places to be attached too. I would think that would be the way to go if your going to do a DIY sump. Again that is what I would do if I were you but it is your tank so do you what you want! As for the main tank I would do a sand bed in between a normal sand bed and a deep sand bed to conserve volume and then add the extra amount that you want to that last chamber so you will still get the benefits of having that amount of substrate and LR for filtration and still allowing your MT to have the volume that you want.

But again I don't believe it matters in what order you have your filtration setup because the water is circulating through the tank and the sump and will get the same benefits at the same rate no matter the order of your filtrating set up. Say you had 35x turnover per hour in your tank. That means your pumps are circulating the water of your tank 35 times an hour. So basically the water will have run through the filtration process 35 times and the order of your filtration setup would have no affect on the water quality. More turnover rate means the more times your water has had the chance of going through the filtration setup, so the more the better as long as your MT isn't receiving to much water flow to the point that a hurricane is sweeping through your tank, corals and animals only like so much flow.

Hopefully that might help out some in your planning! I would write all your plans down along with small sketches so that your really able to plan it out correctly and correct errors in your DIY items. Just make sure you understand the process that the water will be going through (not saying you don't and that I do know, some of the above might be incorrect but I'm pretty sure that's how it works someone please correct me if i'm incorrect so that Steve can have the best possible tank) Good luck to you man.
 
Thanks again Kyle. I'll eventually sort this out.

I might be over thinking it a bit, and still on the Nano level. I was going to start with a 12 gallon, and my research started with Nano's. Where all the filtration is biological, and in the tank with the use of power heads. Ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate. Nano reefers then control the Nitrates/Phosphates through water changes, hob fuges, and/or skimmers. I have not seen any that use external mechanical filtration.

My thinking was along that principle. I just assumed I could apply all biological filtration in the Main Display using power heads to turn over the tank 20x or more, and get ammonia>nitrite>nitrate happening there....assuming I have a reasonable bio-load of course.
And, then would utilize the sump by dedicating that for filtration of the Nitrate/Phosphates by applying mechanical filtration(skimmer), biological filtration(refugium), and chemical filtration(chemipure/carbon/ect)...

But like I said I might be over thinking it here...

I finished the sump on Sunday, so hopefully I'm not too far off base with my thinking. On to designing a skimmer....

I looked up a DIY top off system....cake. That will be easy and cheap.


EDIT: Darn auto correct...
 
Just to clarify but are you setting up a nano? because the whole time I thought you were setting up a 46g with a 20g sump. But lets see some pics on that sump. I love this kinda stuff haha, Also I think we might have different definitions of certain things, such as bio media and mechanical filtration. Sometimes I end up giving my own definition to things so sorry about that. I really hope your tank comes out the way you want it to. Sounds like a fun project.
 
No you're right...this will be for a 46 gallon tank. When I first started kicking around the idea of going salty it was for a 12gallon eclipse. For sure a Nano. But, then starting my research I didn't really care for my stocking options in a Nano. So, I changed it to the 46 I have.

So, as requested a picture of the sump.

IMAG0111.jpg


Water will enter stage1 (left). In stage 1 I will have the skimmer, and maybe some live rock.

In stage 2 I drilled flow holes at the 6", 7.5", 9" heights in hopes that the water will flow all across this area where I will have a 4" DSB and algae. Chaeto??? Not sure of the spelling.
The right side panel is solid and will overflow at 9.5" into first section of stage 3.

This first 1" section is where I plan on putting the chemical filtration ie. chemipure/purigen/Phosguard/carbon....what ever the system calls for in that way.
Water will flow through that and under the last partition into the return pump stage, and then back to the tank.

A pretty simplistic design.
 
A sump isn't a good option for my tank, but my next tank will definetly have a DIY sump like that :good:
 
I like it +1

Looking good. But this will be my last post here, and just to fill you in it seems theres a new website where everyone is going to. aqncenter.net, I will most likely transfer as well. Your more than welcome to jump ship as well with us unless your a captain (gotta love corny jokes).

I've somewhat become attached to this forum and my journal so I might stick around though who knows?
 
Shameless bump...

Still looking for DSB experienced opinions. Would really like to hear from someone with experience in this subject.
 

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