Tips For Growing Hc

[hakova]

Hi there,

I have a 10 gallon tank with an Eheim ecco canister filter, 1 cm. laterite on bottom covered with Eco complete substrate and a yeast-based CO2 system. I planted ~80% of my substrate with HC about a month ago. An ignorant newbie as I was, I did not start fertilizers during the first two weeks and I was using 2x24W lightning for about 6 hours a day. Part of my HC started disintegrating within 7-10 days. After consulting with some of you guys here, I decided to lower the light to 24W for 6 hours, started adding fertilizers via the EI method adjusted for a 10 gallon tank and added another bottle of yeast for the last 2 weeks. I think I am seeing new shoots of sag. subulata now and the slow growers such as java fern and anubias barteri v nana look OK. However, my HC does not seem to grow so far. At best, they are hanging in there, but I actually think that they are not looking very healthy; probably going through a delayed or slow decaying process. I will appreciate any tips to revert this and make them happy and carpeting once and for all.

What does HC need?

1. Light: I can increase the light back to 48W, although many of you recommended against it.
2. CO2: I believe I have enough CO2, if not too much:

3. Ferts: See above. Right now I am dosing 12.5 ml CSM+B on Mondays and Wednesdays, 25 ml NPK on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursdays, 1 ml Fluorish Excel every other day.
4. WC: 80% weekly on Sundays and then dose NPK immediately.

Please share your ideas/recommendations with me.

 

[aaronnorth]

Are you using 4dKH in the DC.

How is the CO2 being distributed? It is hard to get it down to the substrate.


If it is just dieing/ rotting then it leads to CO2 defficiency.

 

[hakova]

Are you using 4dKH in the DC.

Yes I am.

How is the CO2 being distributed? It is hard to get it down to the substrate.

CO2 tubing is connected to a powerhead that pumps the water towards a big rock which causes the bubbles to divide into even smaller ones when they hit it. Then the bubbles rise and meet the flow from the filter outlet, which pushes them across the tank to the other side. I am open to suggestions here.

If it is just dieing/ rotting then it leads to CO2 defficiency.

Sounds like a vicious cycle. I just don't know how to break it. I am also using liquid CO2 although it may not be utilized by HC as well as gaseous CO2 (speculation).

 

[aaronnorth]

HC loves Nitrate & CO2, also responds well to liquid carbon.

Try moving your DC futher down the glass, and see if anything changes, try to poition where you see less bubbles in a certain area, otherwise it changes to quickly, and innacuratley if it is in the stream of bubbles.

Can you get a full tank shot so we cansee the layout?
Thanks, Aaron

 

[hakova]

...
Try moving your DC futher down the glass, and see if anything changes, try to poition where you see less bubbles in a certain area, otherwise it changes to quickly, and innacuratley if it is in the stream of bubbles.

Thanks for the tip, I will definitely do that and see if I get a different reading.

Can you get a full tank shot so we cansee the layout?...

Here is a shot from the right side panel where the CO2 system is installed (yeast bottles, tubing and powerhead):

You can see the bubbles coming out from the powerhead (first arrow at mid-bottom section of the picture), then ascending between the two arrows. Some of these bubbles are then pushed towards the front panel and to the left side of the tank by the filter output (the horizontal arrow at left-top section of the picture). You can also see the reflection of the DC from the back panel of the tank, and it is located at left side panel of the tank, close to the front panel. The filter inlet is at the left back corner, seen at the left bottom part of the picture. Here is a panoramic picture of the tank:

You can already see the not-so-hot-looking HC from this picture in the foreground, but here is a close-up:

Please do not get carried away by the diatoms on the sag.subulata, most of these came with the plant from the store that I ordered online, I was too novice to gently brush those with my fingers before planting them. The new leaves look green and healthy, and I do not have an obvious algae problem at the moment other than those.

 

[aaronnorth]

That is definatley a CO2 issue,
moe the DC down to the substrate, see what happens, you can also try raising the excel to 2ml per day.

 

[hakova]

Thanks aaronnorth for your guidance. I moved the DC to the bottom of the tank and the color is still yellow green. Next, I will increase the amount of liquid carbon to 2 ml/day as you suggested. I am hoping to rescue whatever is left from HCs I originally planted, but things don't look good at the moment. As long as I figure out the right thing to do to save a few roots, then I can order new roots online. Otherwise I will end up killing another batch of HCs, not to mention the cost associated with it.

 

[aaronnorth]

Thanks aaronnorth for your guidance. I moved the DC to the bottom of the tank and the color is still yellow green. Next, I will increase the amount of liquid carbon to 2 ml/day as you suggested. I am hoping to rescue whatever is left from HCs I originally planted, but things don't look good at the moment. As long as I figure out the right thing to do to save a few roots, then I can order new roots online. Otherwise I will end up killing another batch of HCs, not to mention the cost associated with it.

if that doesnt fix it i am not sure what to suggest, Themuleous is having the same problem with HC, he has tried everything too but yet it still fails to grow, I am sure he has grown it in the past though!

 

[dave_oddballs]

i have about a 6" square of hc cuba in my roma 240 with standard lighting, silica sand, big vicious fish and its growing really well! i only pop in some nutrafin plant gro stuff a couple of times a week!
i just emptied a tank of caribsea eco-complete as i found it extremely difficult to keep anything much alive in it really so shoved it in a bag!
my tank has no co2 or anything really and its growing everyday!, i always wanted hc but thought it wouldn't grow, saw this 6" square at the lfs for £5 so got it, and its doing very well!

 

[aaronnorth]

i have about a 6" square of hc cuba in my roma 240 with standard lighting, silica sand, big vicious fish and its growing really well! i only pop in some nutrafin plant gro stuff a couple of times a week!
i just emptied a tank of caribsea eco-complete as i found it extremely difficult to keep anything much alive in it really so shoved it in a bag!
my tank has no co2 or anything really and its growing everyday!, i always wanted hc but thought it wouldn't grow, saw this 6" square at the lfs for £5 so got it, and its doing very well!

HC seems to be one of those plants that changes with each pot!

 

[hakova]

@dave_oddballs: I have never thought about the possibility of the substrate being a negative factor here. It is an interesting and compelling idea, although I am not sure if there is enough evidence to completely blame it on the eco-complete. Again, we are talking about a 10-gallon tank here, supplemented with ferts and CO2, which seems to be reasonably well-distributed throughout the depth, and 2.4-4.8 w/g lighting, none of which seem to help HC growth. And when I say no growth, I mean both no new root development and no new shoot formation. The counter argument here might be "why then anubias nana and sag. subulata growing?". I didn't see much activity on java ferns yet, but in case of both of these above-mentioned plants, there is both new root (sag. subulata) and new leaf formation (both). I guess every plant is different in nature and HC might just be more sensitive to certain things in the substrate perhaps.

@aaronnorth: Do you mean that there is great variation from one pot of HC to another? Even so, all of the 4 pots I received looked very healthy when I received them. They looked like they were grown emersed, and I was inclined to attribute some of the problems to adaptation to immersed condition earlier, but they all consistently failed to grow after 3-4 weeks . I think I have reasons to believe something may not be quite right in my setting to promote and maintain HC growth, other than the initial quality of the plant.

Changing the whole substrate is a very dramatic decision at this point. I am not convinced that it would be necessary at this time, nor I have the guts to do it. I will appreciate further input from the experienced people on this issue.

 

[mdwheeler]

Changing the whole substrate is a very dramatic decision at this point. I am not convinced that it would be necessary at this time, nor I have the guts to do it. I will appreciate further input from the experienced people on this issue.

I wouldn't even attempt too! To be honest I regret ever using the dang stuff. YEs it's optimal for plant growth (so i've heard....aside from your hc) but it's so flippen messy! Next tank I set up i'm DEFINITELY going with fine black sand!


Also just got an idea for co2 dispersal what if you were to figure a way to put it on the intake of your fluval? I've read this has SUPER high efficiency to where you'll barely see any bubbles coming out of the filter due to total and complete diffusion. I kinda wish I had a canister filter, more-so the money to get one!

 

[hakova]

I have some more questions actually. My lighting period right now is about 6 hours (2 hours light + 2 hours siesta + 4 hours light). I stopped increasing the duration since I switched to 2.4 w/g from 4.8 (about 2 weeks now). Do you think the duration of light period may have been too short for the HC?

I am also letting the CO2 out from the gang valve using mdwheeler's technique during dark periods. This definitely causes a drop in CO2 level as documented by DC, but this doesn't count as "fluctuation in CO2 levels", right?

I really need a foreground carpeting plant. This doesn't have to be HC, although I wish it could be. Do you think I should try another one? If yes, what would you recommend? For example, is glossostigma considered easier or harder than HC to grow for carpeting effect? Or instead, should I stick with HC, order a new batch and risk killing some other pots while figuring out what I may be doing wrong?

Once again, I have a 10 gallon tank, Eheim ecco 2332 canister filter, yeast based CO2x2, 24 (to 48 as needed) watts lighting. Substrate is 1 cm laterite at the bottom, overlayed with 2-5 cm Eco-complete black.

@mdwheeler: With 2 yeast bottles being turned over every 3-4 days in these summer days, I am able to get a constant CO2 flow, reasonably well-distributed throughout the depth of the tank, around 30-50 ppm (lime-yellow color) by DC, I really feel like this should be adequate CO2 delivery and distribution in a 10 gallon tank.The HCs are dying throughout the entire surface of the substrate; if there was unequal distribution of the CO2, the HC in the CO2 richer areas should have survived.

 

[mdwheeler]

@mdwheeler: With 2 yeast bottles being turned over every 3-4 days in these summer days, I am able to get a constant CO2 flow, reasonably well-distributed throughout the depth of the tank, around 30-50 ppm (lime-yellow color) by DC, I really feel like this should be adequate CO2 delivery and distribution in a 10 gallon tank.The HCs are dying throughout the entire surface of the substrate; if there was unequal distribution of the CO2, the HC in the CO2 richer areas should have survived.

Oh I agree you have good distribution I was just wondering if you had tried it (more for experimentation purposes). I was reading around and this was apparently better than powerheads and almost as good as the downflow diffusers (those tubes filled with bioballs for about 90 bucks from aquamedic).


I'm really sorry the hc isn't working out for you . I'm gonna be honest at 4.8 wpg and flourish every other day my plants are growing very well. I actually had to trim some. Also (to test the health of your plants) turn off everything on your tank besides your light so you'll eliminate any current or circulation towards the end of the light cycle and check to see if your plants have bubbles rising from them after about 10 minutes (it won't be anything crazy, just a small slow stream of bubbles rising to the surface). If so they're healthy and growing, if not then you know if the hc is truly and completely dead and if your other plants are doing as good as they look. When I trimmed my cabomba today it was like popping a small ballon. I had bubbles flowing out of the stems like mad !

If the hc just won't start I would throw it out and get something like glosso or dwarf hairgrass. Thats what I would get (but no-one sells around here)

 

[aaronnorth]

@aaronnorth: Do you mean that there is great variation from one pot of HC to another? Even so, all of the 4 pots I received looked very healthy when I received them. They looked like they were grown emersed, and I was inclined to attribute some of the problems to adaptation to immersed condition earlier, but they all consistently failed to grow after 3-4 weeks sad1.gif. I think I have reasons to believe something may not be quite right in my setting to promote and maintain HC growth, other than the initial quality of the plant

no, its just that some people grow it with ease, and others cant. Even if they have grown it in the past "something happens" and they cant grow it anymore! It is really strange, i'll PM you.