Tiny white/grey dots and patches [livebearers]

[Abaddon]

Hi again
I wish I could come on here just to make happy/show-off posts, but the aquarium gods have not been kind to me recently & I have to ask for some help/advice AGAIN I recently (~2 weeks ago) got some new livebearers (poecilids), which I unfortunately wasn't able to fully quarantine (my 1 and only QT had a sick fish in it at the time). They went into empty tanks & are going to be the only fish species in there as they are very shy and don't do well in community setups at all, even with similar species. Most of them were very young upon arrival (maybe a few weeks old) and they are SUPER tiny (most of them are under half an inch long). Everything was fine in the beginning, but recently I noticed some microscopic whitish & opaque patches (mostly on their tails). I took out one of the males which was a bit more severely affected - he had tiny dots on his body as well, and was rubbing against surfaces more than the others. The first weird thing I noticed about him upon arrival was that he had a weird white thing that kept going in and out of his mouth (I thought it was a piece of food at first), which disappeared after a few days, but then he started to develop those tiny whitish bumps/spots. The dots protrude slightly from the body, but they are quite difficult to see (maybe because the fish are so small). I've since noticed more fish with these weird spots on their tails, so whatever it is seems to be spreading. One of the younger females has developed a very visible white spot (pictured), but Idk if this is the same thing or something different. The other fish are difficult to photograph since they're so small and the discolouration is not very obvious even to the naked eye, unless you look very closely. The only thing that happened recently was a brief heatwave, but the temperature only increased by about 2-3 degrees Celsius and never went beyond what this species normally experiences in the wild - and it only lasted a couple of days. But that's when I started noticing more of the symptoms, so Idk The fish show no other symptoms other than very occasional flashing (and shimmying, but that's only happened during acclimation and treatment in a separate container, never in the main tanks, so it could just be stress-induced). They're active, eating & swimming well, interested in breeding and their poop is healthy. No laboured breathing or hanging out at the surface either. I haven't lost a single fish & I hope I don't, but it doesn't look like something that I can ignore either. So far I've "narrowed"it down to a few options:
1. Ich
2. Another ectoparasite / fluke
3. Velvet
4. Early stages of columnaris (but I feel like they would probably be in much worse condition by now...?)
5. Tetrahymena
6. Fungus...? (one of the other males has a diffuse opaque patch on his tail, but there's no fraying & it's not fuzzy)

I've isolated the sickest male and started treating him with eSHa 2000 (ethacridine lactate, copper, methyl orange & proflavine) but it hasn't had any noticeable effect. Thing is, the tank is heavily planted and has inverts in it, so I'm a bit limited in my treatment options (like salt). I've ordered eSHa Exit, which supposedly targets a variety of parasites including ich, velvet and tetrahymena (and is safe for plants & other critters). It's copper-free, but contains methylene blue and malachite green in addition to the e. lactate. Am I on the right track with this?
Any insights would be welcome, including from people who have used eSHa products before. The Exit thing claims to get rid of ich in as little as 3-5 days without the need to raise temperature, which I find a bit odd tbh, but it has very god reviews online so Idk.

Tank parameters:
Ammonia: precise value unknown, Seachem badge shows NH3 within the "safe" range (i.e. under or around 0.02ppm)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
GH: 13-15dh
KH: 8
pH: unknown, according to the city website the tapwater is usually around 7.7

[If I can get clearer pictures I will, but it's not easy lol]

 

[GaryE]

@emeraldking - any ideas? I've seen something like that before and it did nothing. But this calls for a real expert.

 

[emeraldking]

It doesn't look like fuingus. It does look a bit like Microsporidium. It will affect the body and fins and is caused by a infection of the muscles with Pleistophora hyphessobryconis, a sporozo. Sporozoa goes from host to host. So, it can spread rapidly among other tank mates. Treatment of this is hard to do. But an option like Toltrazuril or Sulfonamids can be used if the problem hasn't exceeded yet. Otherwise, it will be better to euthanize them before it will spread more. Stress is mostly the source of the problem. Unfortunately, most livebearer species are easy targets for this problem.

But also ich can be the problem. if it hasn't exceeded too much then you can save those livebearers. The problem with livebearers once ich has seriously covered the body, it will probably kill those fish. They're a kind of vulberable for this. But ich doesn't develop larger spots or splocthes, only small dots.

 

[Abaddon]

Pleistophora hyphessobryconis

Is that the same thing that causes neon tetra disease? If so, the product I'm currently using claims to work against it, but it's been 3 days and it hasn't put a dent in it. The fish looks fine at first glance, but if I shine a flashlight from above I can see tiny white speckles, mostly along the top & sides of his body. But they're not as obvious or big as ich (maybe a fraction of a millimetre in size). The female in the photos is the only one that has such a clearly visible white dot. The fish look & act healthy (other than the speckling & occasional flashing), so whatever it is, it's definitely at an early stage. These fish are irreplaceable and hard to get so I'd rather not euthanize unless I'm 100% sure it's necessary Do you have any specific recommendations as to what meds I could use & what dosage? I assume the ones you mentioned should be mixed with food, but I've never done that before & I'm not sure how to proceed...?

 

[Abaddon]

I apologise profusely for the quality, but maybe this will give you at least a tiny idea of what some of it looks like (the tiny "fuzz" along the top of his back), while I try to grab a better photo (the lights haven't come on in my tank yet, this is the 0.5gal QT - it's unlit and the water is stained from the treatment, so it's very difficult to get a clear photo). He also has a few individual whitish flecks on his sides. They're thin, slightly elongated and very small, so they don't quite look like ich. Because the fish is transparent, you need a flashlight to see them, under natural light it's easy to miss. It almost looks like it swam through some fine debris I've dealt with skin flukes before & this kind of looks like that, except much smaller. The eSHa 2000 isn't doing much so I'm switching to the Exit thing and if that doesn't work, Gdex (praziquantel) is my last line of defense.

 

[emeraldking]

Is that the same thing that causes neon tetra disease?

Yes, it is...

Well, how do they behave? Do theys wim and eat normal or is there something different than usual to start with?
From these pics I'm not sure whether you have Girardinus metallicus or Quintana atrizona. These little rascals are a bit sensitive to stress and dirt. I'm keepng both species myself.

 

[Abaddon]

Well, how do they behave? Do theys wim and eat normal or is there something different than usual to start with?

They have a huge appetite and are eating as usual, no changes there. They're just as active and lively as when I first got them. Their behaviour is normal as far as I can tell, other than very occasional flashing/scratching against plants (I've only seen them do it a handful of times since they arrived). The adult females arrived a bit skinny (normal poop) & one of them is acting aggressive and chasing everyone away during feeding time, but Idk if that's normal for the species or if she's just a jerk lol. The one in the other tank doesn't do that for some reason, and they sometimes briefly clamp their fins (just the adult females, though. But they don't have any external symptoms; those seem to be restricted to the younger/smaller fish).

From these pics I'm not sure whether you have Girardinus metallicus or Quintana atrizona

It's Quintana atrizona. They were shipped overnight, so they were definitely exposed to some stress. I acclimated them over several hours & didn't have any losses or issues other than some shimmying from the fry, which went away once they were put into the main tank. I had a filter malfunction in the beginning where it started spewing brown gunk into the water, so there was some dirt involved too I did a WC and dosed Prime as a preventative measure for the following week & didn't notice any immediate effects on the fish.

 

[emeraldking]

They have a huge appetite and are eating as usual, no changes there. They're just as active and lively as when I first got them. Their behaviour is normal as far as I can tell, other than very occasional flashing/scratching against plants (I've only seen them do it a handful of times since they arrived). The adult females arrived a bit skinny (normal poop) & one of them is acting aggressive and chasing everyone away during feeding time, but Idk if that's normal for the species or if she's just a jerk lol. The one in the other tank doesn't do that for some reason, and they sometimes briefly clamp their fins (just the adult females, though. But they don't have any external symptoms; those seem to be restricted to the younger/smaller fish).

It's Quintana atrizona. They were shipped overnight, so they were definitely exposed to some stress. I acclimated them over several hours & didn't have any losses or issues other than some shimmying from the fry, which went away once they were put into the main tank. I had a filter malfunction in the beginning where it started spewing brown gunk into the water, so there was some dirt involved too I did a WC and dosed Prime as a preventative measure for the following week & didn't notice any immediate effects on the fish.

Try to put them on some salt. That may do the trick...

 

[Abaddon]

Try to put them on some salt. That may do the trick..

That would've been my first line of defence, but I have very densely planted tanks with shrimp Is there a safe concentration I can use to avoid harming them?

There's no way in hell I can catch all the fish now, there's like 25 of them, most are tiny & they're surrounded by dense vegetation That's why I turned to the eSHa brand, since their products tend to be safe to use in display tanks & can be used in combination. The only catch here is that I need to know more or less what the problem is (fungal, bacterial or parasitic) so I can pick the right meds

 

[emeraldking]

No too much salt if you're keeping shrimps in the same tank...

 

[Abaddon]

No too much salt if you're keeping shrimps in the same tank...

Would 1 teaspoon per 20 litres be okay? (And if so, how long can this dip last?)

 

[emeraldking]

Would 1 teaspoon per 20 litres be okay? (And if so, how long can this dip last?)

That'll be good enough and just for 2-3 days. And then check how they are.

 

[Abaddon]

That'll be good enough and just for 2-3 days. And then check how they are.

 

[Abaddon]

Update: I was able to look at the quarantined male through a magnifying glass, and I noticed a few tiny roundish bumps on his skin, along with several elongated white streaks on his skin & fins that looked like microscopic grains of rice (barely visible to the naked eye). The bumps looked like they may have a tiny black dot in the center, like a mini blackhead, but - huge disclaimer - this MAY just be the fish's natural colouration. But I definitely don't think it's ich at this point. The fish are all doing fine, eating, active, I haven't even noticed any flashing recently, although I have seen a few tiny white dots here and there (the affected fish aren't showing any other symptoms). I think, with my limited knowledge & frantic online research, that I'm dealing either with trematodes/flukes of some kind or very early lymphocystis...? I will try eSHa gdex. I have some salt on hand but I'm keeping it as a last resort since I'm *really* worried about the plants & inverts...
Lymphocystis could explain why my male (who is pretty much acting as my lab rat at this point ) hasn't responded to treatment (but isn't getting any worse either), and why none of my other fish are acting different. Apparently it's just something that has to run its course until the fish develop immunity.
I just hope it's not epistylis

 

[Abaddon]

While I'm waiting for the new meds to arrive, I managed to snap a few clearer pics. Maybe someone knows what this is? @emeraldking, sorry to bother you again It didn't respond to the standard doses of ich & broad spectrum medicine (maybe I need to extend the treatment?), but the fish isn't getting any worse either. He's shimmying a lot, but I figure it's probably from the stress of isolation & treatment. I don't really want to put him back in the main tank as he's not 100% OK and until I know what this is I don't want to risk it. I've switched over to salt (just in the QT, if it works then I'll dose the display tanks, but I'd rather not risk everything without knowing for certain whether it'll help). Again, none of the other fish have any symptoms other than very occasional scratching and pinprick-sized dots here and there (usually on the caudal fin). They actually seem to have disappeared mostly, I can't find the female from the first photo so the spot either vanished or she died (although I think I would've noticed as I've done a few small WCs since then). No behavioural changes either. The fish seem to be doing well, actually, so I'm kind of hesitant about needlessly dosing meds & potentially making things worse...?
Anyway, here are the pics.