Tilting Tetras

[Rockanne]

I set up a 20 gal. tank in April.  pH is ~7.5, no ammonia or nitrate issues. I have a pleco, 6 neons, a clown loach and a gourami all acting healthy.  But, I have 4 lemon tetras that sometimes tilt to one side and/or tilt nose down or swim in a spiral.  Only the lemons.  It gets worse when I turn the light off at night and then they usually recover after I turn it back on in the morning (although 1 has now died).  I began thinking it was water temperature but it is up to ~80F and they still do it when I turn the light off at night.  They do not cluster near the heater like they are trying to get warmer.
 
Should I raise the water temp even higher or is something else maybe going on?
 
 
 

 

[fluttermoth]

First of all, can you post the actual numbers from your tests, and what you use to test with.
 
Secondly, how did you cycle the tank (fishlessly or fish-in?) and how long have you had the tetras?
 
Lastly, does this happen only when you turn the lights on or off, or does it happen at other times as well?
 
i know this isn't directly related to your current issues, but i feel I ought to tell you that the clown loach, and possibly the pleco (depending on species) is not suitable for your tank. Clown loach can grow to a foot long, and should always be kept in a shoal of at least six. Many commonly sold plecs grow up to two feet in length and are only suitable for very large tanks (5'+).

 

[Rockanne]

What I can add now is that ammonia = 0.  The other info I don't recall exactly and will need to get when I am home.
 
I attempted to cycle my tank by getting filter media from another established tank prior to adding any fish.  After ~3-4 weeks I got the pleco and neons and didn't seem to have any issues.  But, perhaps the cycling was unsuccesful?
 
I have had the lemon tetras and gourami for about 3 weeks.  The lemons have been acting this way the whole time, at first most of the time regardless of the light.  Water temp was initially ~78F.  When all water tests were within normal ranges, I began thinking about water temp.  I dropped it slightly at first and the tilting seemed to get worse.  So I raised it gradually to what it is now, ~80F.  They then improved and acted normal during the day with the light on, but still had an issue when I turned the light off at night (they would be tilted again in the morning but only for a little while). I experimented by leaving the light on overnight for a couple nights and then they were fine all the time. Last night I tried turning it off again and they were tilted again this morning.
 
Thank you for the information on the pleco and clown.  I have gotten mixed information on that and have made plans to relocate them to a larger tank as needed.
 
I hope this additional information helps, and I'll give more info on the test results ASAP.

 

[Byron]

I cannot pinpoint the issue, but I can offer some suggestions on things I see that contribute indirectly.  First is the temperature; 80F is too warm for the fish listed.  The neons will literally burn out before long, and the lemon tetra do not need this warmth.  The "improvement" when you raised the temp from 78F to 80F is possibly something else because the erratic swimming is not something that would be caused by a lower temperature (provided not below low 70'sF).  The normal temperature range for this species is 72-82F, meaning the fish can manage at the extremes but should be maintained close to the middle.  Higher temperatures for fish mean they must work harder to maintain their internal systems.
 
I agree with fluttermoth on the loach, please re-home it; this is a highly social fish that must have a group of five or more, but getting very large (8 inches minimum and frequently up to a foot) it needs a lot of tank space.  And not having companions, plus the tank size, is affecting this fish's internal development which in fish occurs life-long.  And the pleco, if the common, is a huge and very messy fish, 12 up to 20 inches is normal.
 
Light should never be on continually.  This is severely stressful on all fish.  They need a period of total darkness just as all animals do.  Ich frequently occurs from continual tank light.
 
A 20 gallon tank is not much space, to fish.  Tetra require groups, no less than six, and while this is certainly not the cause of the lemons odd swimming, it is something to keep in mind if they recover, that you need more.  What species is the gourami?  Some of these can get large too, certainly beyond a 20g tank.  The mix of fish can effect their stress, and again I am not suggesting this, but there is probably stress in the loach, the tetra from the warmth, etc, and all this does add up.
 
I think I am familiar with the lemon behaviour you are describing, and in my experience there is no cure, though it can get better sometimes.  Some sort of genetic or internal deformity with the swim bladder is one possibility, and I have seen this is a single fish within a species group after a few days, at other times several months.  It can be genetic or caused by damage during netting and transport.  It can also occur from some diseases, internal protozoan for instance.  Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate can cause it.  Inappropriate water parameters, or a sudden change in GH or pH.  Hard to pin down.
 
Speaking of water parameters, do you know your tap water GH and pH?
 
Byron.

 

[Rockanne]

Thank you, Byron.  That is helpful. 
 
I was concerned it was getting too warm which is why I wanted more experienced opinions. I will lower it again.  And I only left the light on for the sake of the brief experiment and will not do that again. 
 
If the water continues to test within normal ranges perhaps this is something with the lemons that I cannot prevent or cure, esp. if you have seen/heard of this before with them.  Just wanted to make sure before I gave up trying.
 
In the tank, the pH is ~7.5 currently.  The GH I don't recall the exact number but it was "normal" according to my kit.  I have not tested directly from the tap so will try that.  I am on well water, if that matters.
 
Can you all recommend some more appropriate species and numbers of them for me to get in the future once I know my tank is okay?

 

[Byron]

The pH at 7.5 should not be a problem with these fish.  GH might, depending, but again I am not suggesting this is the cause of the lemon tetra issue.  As you mention well water, is it private or municipal?  Just wondering if it has been tested as for you, not just fish.  There could be high nitrates, or some minerals (iron, copper) that might cause fish issues.
 
Once this is resolved, I would suggest re-homing the loach, possibly the pleco (depends what it is, some do remain small at 4-5 inches).  Still don't know the gourami species.  Then you could increase the neons (six is fine, or you could add a couple more).  If you stay with Lemons, I would get 6-7 in total.  That pretty much covers the upper water level in a 20g.  You could add some cory catfish, a group of 5-7.  If the Lemons all die and you decide to try something else, there are some nice shoaling tetra and rasbora that would work.  Rasbora are quiet fish, meaning not active swimmers, so a group (7-9) of the Harlequin or one of the similar species is an option.  The less-active tetras are another.
 
Byron.

 

[Rockanne]

Oops, sorry, it is a blue dwarf gourami.
 
Private well.  I have it tested annually by the health dept. and they say it is fine for us, but I think they mostly just look for bacteria.  Perhaps I can look into the other minerals but not sure how at the moment.  Will keep testing everything I can and try to keep the tank on track.
 
Your species suggestions are very helpful and I will implement as appropriate.  Thank you.

 

[Byron]

It might be worth having the water tested by a professional person (as opposed to using fish test kits which are expensive and not always as accurate) just to know what's in it.  What is safe for humans to drink is not always safe for fish to live in.  Copper and iron are two that come to mind; safe human levels will kill many fish.  The GH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate (the latter is certainly possible in agricultural areas for instance) are all important.
 
Byron.

 

[LilyRose Tank]

Hi there. When you say they are tilting, are they tilting toward another tetra? The reason I ask is that my male purple emperor tear used to do this as a way of displaying dominance over another male especially when the females were near by. Are all of the lemon tetra doing this, or just one or two. If lemon tetra are able to be sexed by sexual dimorphism( I don't know if that's possible) you may find that the males are being dominant toward each other to gain approval from the females if there are any in your tank...just a thought. Good luck with figuring out the problem x

 

[Rockanne]

Some answers to your questions and an update below.
 
Using an API test kit, the tank water has the following:
pH ~7.5
ammonia = 0
nitrite = 0
water hardness ~80 ppm
I am not able to test for nitrate, my mistake before.
 
from the tap:
pH ~7.2
ammonia = 0
nitrite = 0
water hardness ~60 ppm
 
Water temp is now 78F.
 
Lemons are all somewhat tilted but not the worst I have seen them.  The tilting seems to be completely unrelated to any behavior toward or interaction between any of them.  One Lemon now shows signs of bloat.  Another is looking skinny.
 
I will look into getting my water tested for nitrate, copper, iron, or anything else.  Or should I start doing water changes with distilled water or from some other source?  Also, what is the ideal temperature now?
 
thank you all for your expertise!

 

[Byron]

The GH rising in the tank puzzles me.  GH will tend to remain the same as the source water, unless something is directly affecting it.  What is your substrate material?  Any rocks in the tank?  Increasing GH is usually due to calcareous substances (rock, sand, gravel composed of calcareous mineral like calcium, magnesium).
 
Temp at 78F is fine, might lower it to 76/77F.  One or two degrees may not seem like much, but to the fish it is.
 
I also thought of the interaction of the tetra previously, but your description of this continuing and such leads me to think it is not normal but a physiological issue.  Is there any chance of a video?
 
I would stay with the well water for the present, at least until you have it tested and if something shows up.  This may well be something peculiar to the Lemon Tetra, meaning they have a physiological or other issue.  Let us know if it spreads.  This is unlikely from my experience, unless the issue is an internal protozoan.  No way to know except by observation.
 
Byron.

 

[Rockanne]

I only have aquarium gravel and rocks in the tank and some plastic plants.  The only other thing I can think of is the addition of water that came with the fish from the store that got mixed in.  But this was not very much and I have done water changes since so it would be very diluted.
 
I will see if I can get a video.

 

[TallTree01]

Hi rockanne, I have a small contribution which may help yu. I used to keep tiger barbs which were big tilters. One thing I noticed was that at feeding time, they went spastic and attacked the food at the surface. I thought that perhaps the tilting was caused by the amount of air they consumed while feeding. So as an experiment I soaked my food and it sank then the barbs got it. The tilting stopped. This may be the case with your lemon tetras as I find some fish are more prone to tilting than others.

 

[Byron]

I only have aquarium gravel and rocks in the tank and some plastic plants.  The only other thing I can think of is the addition of water that came with the fish from the store that got mixed in.  But this was not very much and I have done water changes since so it would be very diluted.
 
I will see if I can get a video.

What type of gravel?  And the rocks?  The latter (rocks) you can test; remove one, dry it off, and drop some vinegar on it.  If the vinegar fizzes, the rock is calcareous.
 
Now on the water, this is a no-no.  Never allow water from the bag to enter the tank.  The bag water is going to be loaded with ammonia, pheromones/allomones, TDS, possibly pathogens and goodness knows what else.  The fish can carry pathogens/disease, and that is bad enough, but the water is even worse.
 
To acclimate new fish, open the bag and let it float for say 15 minutes to equalize temperature.  Then add some tank water to the bag.  [Depending upon how much water the store put in the bag, you may need to remove some of it before floating it, as you want room to add at least the same amount of tank water as the water in the bag.]  Leave for 15-20 minutes, then add more tank water.  I usually add about a cup each time; some aquarists use a drip method.  Either way, you want to double the volume of water initially in the bag by adding tank water.  Sometimes I do this three or four times.  When finished, net the fish out of the bag into the tank.  Discard the bag water.
 
A quarantine tank for new fish is wise these days, but the process above is the same.
 
These suggestions about interaction of fish and feeding, etc. are all completely justified and valid.  But I still think from your initial description that we are dealing with a real problem; the video will confirm this.
 
Byron.

 

[Rockanne]

Well, no luck on the video.  Don't have what I need to take and upload it.  But, the tilting seems to have improved.  Although two now appear bloated and one still skinny.
 
The gravel really is small stones I guess, don't know the exact brand/name, but made for freshwater aquariums.  The shelter rocks are also sold for aquariums. No fizz with the vinegar.
 
For acclimation, that is mostly what I do, but failed when allowing some of the water to enter the tank.  Always something more to learn.
 
Thanks for the all the advice and lessons.  Not sure what will happen with the lemons but fingers crossed.  And I think I'll be able to get my water tested this weekend.