Thinking About Getting Into Some Africans

[Nevergone815]

I currently keep many species of New World cichlids, but I would like to get into some african cichlids. I would like to keep a Malawi setup. The fish I'm currently interested on are:

~Yellow Labs (Labidochromis caeruleus)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=839

~Fuelleborni Cichlids, Orange Blossom Variant (Labeotropheus fuelleborni)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1991

~Peacock Cichlids, Orange Blossom Variant (Aulonocara nyassae var.)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1993


I also like some others, though I'm not sure if they are 100% compatible with the other fish above, such as:


~Kenyi Cichlid (Pseudotropheus lombardoi)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=920

~Bumblebee Cichlid (Pseudotropheus crabro)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=2531

~Demasoni Cichlid (Pseudotropheus demasoni)- http/liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1663


My goal would be to try to get groups of 1m/2-3f for each species. What would a minimum tank size be for the groups for the 3 top species? Would I be able to do all of these species? Also, would I be able to add any different fish in with them? Are there any more species that come in the "Orange Blossom" variation? I absolutely love the colors on everyoen that I've seen pictures of.

Thank you all for your help in advanced!

 

[dthoffsett]

Welcome to the obsessive world of African Cichlids! I'll see what I can do to help you out.

First I'll start with the basic set up, please excuse me if you already know this.
Tank - you're going to want at the very least a 55gal tank, I prefer a 75gal or larger myself.
Substrate/Decor - You can go with any substrate you like, however, Malawis LOVE to dig, so to see the most of their natural behavior, I recommend using sand. You can use inexpensive play sand, or you can even use aragonite sand marketed for marine tanks (not live sand) since it will help buffer the water. Decor, rocks, rocks, rocks. You can fit a ton more rocks in a tank than you would think. I currently have around 130-160lbs in a 75gal tank, and there are members on here with more! Mbuna (rock-dwelling malawis) are extremely territoral and providing tons of rock caves and crevices allows them to keep multiple territories and cut down on aggression.
Filtration - The type of filtration you use is personal preference, however you'll want the entire volume of your tank to be filtered 8 or more times per hour. Since you'll want to overstock to cut down on aggression, you'll need a ton of filtration to keep a stable tank.

Ok, now the fish you are interested in. I'm going to add some links to each fish that give better information than liveaquaria.com.

Yellow labs (l.caeruleus) - One of my favorite mbuna. They are peaceful by mbuna standards, and are accepted by even the most aggressive species.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=713
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php

Fuelleborni Cichlids, Orange Blossom Variant (l.fuelleborni)- OB actually stands for orange-blotch, though some LFS will try to fancy it up. I've never kept them, but they are definately an interesting little fish. If you plan to keep them, they require a highly oxygenated environment, so you'll probably want a tank turnover of at least 10 times per hour.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2305
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_fuelleborni.php

OB Peacock - OB peacocks are actually a man-made hybrid and therefor unsuitable in my opinon. Not only that, but most peacocks are too peaceful for mbuna and are often bullied. They can be kept with mbuna, but carefully, and IMO not for the beginner.
<a href="http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ob_peacock.php" target="_blank">http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ob_peacock.php

</a> Kenyi (metriaclima lombardoi) - These are aggressive little buggers, not suitable for anything under 75gal in my opinion, definately only want 1 male per tank.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=798
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_lombardoi.php

Bumble-bee (p.crabro) - Much maligned fish in my opinion. If kept in a suitable sized tank (75gal minimum), with 1 male to at least 3 females they are fabulous fish. They can also be kept successfully singley. Both Ferris and I keep a single females in our tanks. They are bold enough to be in the open, yet not overly aggressive.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=845
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_crabro.php

Demasoni (p.demasoni) - These are another wonderful little fish. They must be kept in groups of at least 12, and not with any fish with similar coloration. They are highly aggressive to their own kind (hence large groups kept together) but tend to ignore other fish. Surprisingly enough, they are a delicate fish healthwise, and do best in either a species tank or very well with yellow labs.

Oh crap, I gotta get off and go to work, I'll come back on later tonight and post some more. Here's a good place to read articles on mbuna keeping until I get back. - Dawn

http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/


(edited for atrocious spelling and grammer errors)

 

[caboose_122]

Welcome to the obsessive world of African Cichlids! I'll see what I can do to help you out.

First I'll start with the basic set up, please excuse me if you already know this.
Tank - you're going to want at the very least a 55gal tank, I prefer a 75gal or larger myself.
Substrate/Decor - You can go with any substrate you like, however, Malawis LOVE to dig, so to see they most of their natual behavior, I recommend using sand. You can use inexpensive play sand, or you can even use aragonite sand marketed for marine tanks (not live sand) since it will help buffer the water. Decor, rocks, rocks, rocks. You can fit a ton more rocks in a tank than you would think. I currently have around 130-160lbs in a 75gal tank, and there are members on here with more! Mbuna (rock-dwelling malawis) are extremely territoral and providing tons of rock caves and crevices allows them to keep multiple territories and cut down on aggression.
Filtration - The type of filtration you use is personal preference, however you'll want the entire volume of your tank to be filtered 8 or more times per hour. Since you'll want to overstock to cut down on aggression, you'll need a ton of filtration to keep a stable tank.

Ok, now the fish you are interested in. I'm going to add some links to each fish you are interested in that give better information than liveaquaria.com.

Yellow labs (l.caeruleus) - One of my favorite mbuna. They are peaceful by mbuna standards, and are accepted by even the most aggressive species.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=713
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php

Fuelleborni Cichlids, Orange Blossom Variant (l.fuelleborni)- OB actually stands for orange-blotch, though some LFS will try to fancy it up. I've never kept them, but they are definately an interesting little fish. If you plan to keep them, they require a highly oxygenated environment, so you'll probably want a tank turnover of at least 10 times per hour.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2305
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_fuelleborni.php

OB Peacock - OB peacocks are actually a man-made hybrid and therefor unsuitable in my opinon. Not only that, but most peacocks are too peaceful for mbuna and are often bullied. They can be kept with mbuna, but carefully, and IMO not for the beginner.
<a href="http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ob_peacock.php" target="_blank">http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ob_peacock.php

</a> Kenyi (metriaclima lombardoi) - These are aggressive little buggers, not suitable for anything under 75gal in my opinion, definately only want 1 male per tank.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=798
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_lombardoi.php

Bumble-bee (p.crabro) - Much maligned fish in my opinion. If kept in a suitable sized tank (75gal minimum), with 1 male to at least 3 females they are fabulous fish. They can also be kept successfully singley. Both Ferris and I keep a single females in our tanks. They are bold enough to be in the open, yet not overly aggressive.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=845
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/m_crabro.php

Demasoni (p.demasoni) - These are another wonderful little fish. They must be kept in groups of at least 12, and not with any fish with similar coloration. They are highly aggressive to their own kind (hence large groups kept together) but tend to ignore other fish. Surprisingly enough, they are a delicate fish healthwise, and do best in either a species tank or very well with yellow labs.

Oh crap, I gotta get off and go to work, I'll come back on later tonight and post some more. Here's a good place to read articles on mbuna keeping until I get back. - Dawn

http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/

pretty much every thing was covered here!

i would reccomend a 75 gallon minimum (bigger the tank the better)

demasoni need to be in groups of 12 minimum i wouldent keep them in this particular setup becuase they stall small. dems stay small only about 2-3 inches and almost all of there aggression is conspicific but dont underestamate them

if you want dems go with tanks about 33 or 40 gallons or more if you want more dems they look amazing with yellow labs

 

[dthoffsett]

Ok, I'm back. Where was I? Oh yeah, stocking.

I'm sure there are others, but the ob red zebras are the only other OB mbuna I could find.
OB Red zebra (m.estherae OB)-these aren't seen very often, but you might be able to find them.
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2316
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/met_estherae.php

If you want to keep all of the species you mentioned with the exceptions of the peacock and demasoni, I recommend at least a 75gal tank, 90gal would be even better.
Yellow labs - 4-5 m/f ratio doesn't matter.
Fuelleborni - 4-5 1m/3-4f
Bumblebee - 4 1m/3f
Kenyi - 4-5 1m/3-4f
If wanted you could add a couple of synodontis catfish (multipunctatus and petricola are popular) and a bristle-nose pleco, but they aren't necessary.

The above stocking would be a pretty aggressive setup, but with plenty of rock work and close observation it would be a colorful active tank.

Oh, another alternative you could do: Have just 1 crabro (preferably female) and 4-5 m.estherae (red zebras) 1m/3-4f; that would add another nice color to the tank, and the zebras stay a couple of inches smaller than the crabros.

And, if I haven't overwhelmed you yet, I'm going to post some articles that I think are essential for mbuna newbies. Good luck and hope I helped.

http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/cookie_cutter_75g.php
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/lake_malawi_setup.php
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/sand.php
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aufwuchs.php
http/www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/feeding_mbuna.php

 

[Ferris]

And don't forget our very own pinned topics, especially this one - i haven't seen a better beginners guide anywhere.

 

[caboose_122]

this one - i haven't seen a better beginners guide anywhere.

deffininitly!

 

[dthoffsett]

And don't forget our very own pinned topics, especially this one - i haven't seen a better beginners guide anywhere.

Oops , meant to add that link.

 

[Nevergone815]

Thanks for all the advice on the species. It's always good to hear information from more than one source in my opinion.

I've been reading up a whole lot and have not had the chance to get to those articles, but trust me I will!!!

Thanks a lot everyone!!!




Is there anything else I should know? Possibly some other combinations involving other species?

 

[Ferris]

cichlidforum is a great site with tons of info so it's well worth checking out those links dthoffsett gave you. There are a few species profiles for Mbuna in our fish index now so that's also worth a look. Any books/info you come accross by Ad Konings will also prove invaluable.

One thing i will mention is that that stocking different species with a very similar appearance (orange blossom variants) can create the same problem as multiple males of the same species - aggression. For example a male orange blossom Fuelleborni and a male orange blossom Peacock will perceive each other as direct rivals and the Peacock is going to come off much worse in that example. The same can also happen with females, though this is less common. - Just something to bear in mind, it can be done but there will almost certainly be problems along the way. A tank bigger than a 55 gal will help in this case, especially if the tank is long (5ft)

 

[Gatorbait]

cichlidforum is a great site with tons of info so it's well worth checking out those links dthoffsett gave you.

Like most people that know their stuff, Ferris won't tell you how much he knows and won't show it with every post he/she makes.

HE/SHE won't say it but I will for him/her...

I've been in the SA/CA business for 30 years and piranha biz for 20. I've had MANY tanks for personal use (up to 40-50 at a time in the old days) and quite a few times had African cichlids. I never studied them, bred them, researched them like i did with SA/CA's/piranhas but "had" them. I'm definitely no expert at all or even very knowledgable with Africans other than with what I've had.

So in all my years I know just by the way people post whether they know anything or not. Ferris knows his/her stuff. You can go to these
other forums like he/she suggested but you will not get better advice than what Ferris and a couple others here at this forum can give you. Seriously, these people are great here. Don't let Ferris kid you, this person is spot on. I don't have any affiliation with this forum whatsoever but I know knowledge when I see and they have it here, CFC is another one that knows WTF is going on, tbh. He knows his stuff and these are the poeple I will PM, not start threads to find out, but PM if I go in their specialty direction because I respect them that much.

Make sure you get 1 M. Chipokae if you go with Mbuna's. One of the greatest fish alive other than piranhas. You've handled cichlids long enough to do it.

Edit:
BTW, Ferris, can you at least let me know if you're a male or female so next time I can forgo the he/she him/her etc stuff?

 

[Nevergone815]

Thanks for the heads up . I'll definately take a look into M. Chipokae . Thanks for the bode of confidence in my ability to keep certain speccies that might not be considered "beginner freindly". I have kept SA/CA cichlids some time and have quite a few of them to talk about. I'm still a bit peeved that I live in NY and can't get piranhas, but African cichlids I can do .

I don't have a tank set up yet, but wanted to get together an idea, as I know what many NW cichldis need and "proper" stocking and care. Also, I know just because they come form a certian lake doesn't make them compatible for home aquaria stocking.

I've been doing loads of research on this since I got the bright idea, and I'm glad people are helping me to learn. Thanks to all who responded .

 

[caboose_122]

cichlidforum is a great site with tons of info so it's well worth checking out those links dthoffsett gave you.

Like most people that know their stuff, Ferris won't tell you how much he knows and won't show it with every post he/she makes.

HE/SHE won't say it but I will for him/her...

I've been in the SA/CA business for 30 years and piranha biz for 20. I've had MANY tanks for personal use (up to 40-50 at a time in the old days) and quite a few times had African cichlids. I never studied them, bred them, researched them like i did with SA/CA's/piranhas but "had" them. I'm definitely no expert at all or even very knowledgable with Africans other than with what I've had.

So in all my years I know just by the way people post whether they know anything or not. Ferris knows his/her stuff. You can go to these
other forums like he/she suggested but you will not get better advice than what Ferris and a couple others here at this forum can give you. Seriously, these people are great here. Don't let Ferris kid you, this person is spot on. I don't have any affiliation with this forum whatsoever but I know knowledge when I see and they have it here, CFC is another one that knows WTF is going on, tbh. He knows his stuff and these are the poeple I will PM, not start threads to find out, but PM if I go in their specialty direction because I respect them that much.

Make sure you get 1 M. Chipokae if you go with Mbuna's. One of the greatest fish alive other than piranhas. You've handled cichlids long enough to do it.

Edit:
BTW, Ferris, can you at least let me know if you're a male or female so next time I can forgo the he/she him/her etc stuff?

read his profile, it says male

 

[Ferris]

BTW, Ferris, can you at least let me know if you're a male or female so next time I can forgo the he/she him/her etc stuff?

Definitely a "he" - and thanks for the kind comments.

Make sure you get 1 M. Chipokae if you go with Mbuna's. One of the greatest fish alive other than piranhas. You've handled cichlids long enough to do it.

Ah-ha - one of my favourites and arguably the most aggressive Mbuna species there is. Wonderful fish that will certainly become the tank boss - one word of caution though, i have had to return a male Chipokae once due to over-aggression (killed one fish and attacked several others). - That said, i have also successfully kept them without serious issue. Whatever you do - don't get more than 1.

 

[Gatorbait]

BTW, Ferris, can you at least let me know if you're a male or female so next time I can forgo the he/she him/her etc stuff?

Definitely a "he" - and thanks for the kind comments.

Make sure you get 1 M. Chipokae if you go with Mbuna's. One of the greatest fish alive other than piranhas. You've handled cichlids long enough to do it.

Ah-ha - one of my favourites and arguably the most aggressive Mbuna species there is. Wonderful fish that will certainly become the tank boss - one word of caution though, i have had to return a male Chipokae once due to over-aggression (killed one fish and attacked several others). - That said, i have also successfully kept them without serious issue. Whatever you do - don't get more than 1.

NP at all Ferris. I have a ton of respect for your knowledge. and thank you caboose_122. I never look in profiles so that didn't even occur to me. lol

BTW, I noticed above the mention of crabro. I've had both chipokae and crabro before but never in the same tank. IME, crabros are pretty darn feisty. Do you think the crabro would back down to the chipokae?

I only ask because it sounds like a crabro is the one more wanted and I'm afraid if the crabro doesn't back down the chipokae would kill it and I'd feel bad suggesting one.

 

[Gatorbait]

Thanks for the heads up . I'll definately take a look into M. Chipokae . Thanks for the bode of confidence in my ability to keep certain speccies that might not be considered "beginner freindly". I have kept SA/CA cichlids some time and have quite a few of them to talk about. I'm still a bit peeved that I live in NY and can't get piranhas, but African cichlids I can do .

I don't have a tank set up yet, but wanted to get together an idea, as I know what many NW cichldis need and "proper" stocking and care. Also, I know just because they come form a certian lake doesn't make them compatible for home aquaria stocking.

I've been doing loads of research on this since I got the bright idea, and I'm glad people are helping me to learn. Thanks to all who responded .

They are great fish. VERY aggressive and one of, if not THE, toughest Mbuna there is from the Mbuna I've had and what I've heard from others.

I've always used them as "policemen" to calm the tank down. 99% of the time it's always worked. I would have a rowdy tank with everyone trying to keep their territories...then about a month after all the other fish are established I'd throw a chipokae in there and within the week he'd start taking everyone on and climbing the dominance ladder. Once he's established at the top, the other all stop fighting and if any do, the chipokae's I had would always rush over and get between them in the sense of "if you guys wanna fight, let's go...that's what I thought" and nothing else would happen.


make sure you give the other Mbuna at least a few weeks to get established first and add the chipokae last. I'll see if I can find some links for you and I'll post them in here.

I'm thinking of setting up a 55g this summer that I have empty with Mbuna's so I'm interested in this thread very much.