Thinking About Flounders...

CAC

Formerly: Catfish Are Cool
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Hi im interested in getting some flounders, but im in need of some advice..
ive read the topic on them in this forum but im unsure of what size tank they need when they're older and how many should be kept for them to be happy etc.
what else can you keep in with them?
where can you get them from in the UK?
thanks, mikey
 
Well, beyond the threads highlighted in the post below, you might also find the entry in the Brackish FAQ useful. I also happen to have a long article about these fish in this month's (June's) TFH magazine.

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?s=&sho...dpost&p=1212015

Being rather broad animals, width is more important than depth, but for the typical ~20 cm species a 30-40 gallon aquarium would be a good start. They are totally indifferent to one another. The main problems are (1) identifying your species and (2) feeding them.

The first issue is because not all need the same water conditions. Some are strictly freshwater (e.g., B. harmandi) others need brackish (e.g., B. panoides) while yet others are essentially marine (e.g., B. orientalis).

Feeding them live bloodworms through a quarantine period is HIGHLY recommended, and at the very least give them frozen bloodworms. Only once settled in and feeding, and obviously putting on weight, move them to a community setting. The only way to avoid quarantining them is a community with strictly surface feeders (e.g., halfbeaks) that will not steal food from the flatfish. Almost without exception these fish are nocturnal, so feed in the evening. Once settled in they become day active and will eat anything. I had a coldwater marine plaice that enjoyed trout pellets.

Cheers,

Neale
 
Nmonks, is there any way to clearly tell between the species? Cause i just got this flounder that the lfs guy assures me is a freshwater species, but i intend to check it out before i take his word for it. Any tips?

P.T.

ps: sorry for hijacking the thread, CAC
 
The first thing is to determine the family. There are three. The traded species of Cynoglossidae and Soleidae come from SE Asia, the species of Achiridae from the Americas. Cynoglossidae are rare. They are very long and narrow (length is ~five times the width) and taper to a point; the tail fin is imperceptible. They have a rather odd head, elongated and almost triangular. Two species are traded, both strictly freshwater.

The Soleidae seem to be the most commonly traded ones in the UK. They are rounded and have small tail fins that merge into the fins along the edge of the body with only a slight pinching separating them. There are several species traded and most are difficult to identify. One that is easy to spot is Brachirus harmandi, becuase it is the only commonly traded sole with dark patches on the underside of the fish. It is a true freshwater fish. Most of the others want either slightly brackish (e.g., Brachirus panoides) or brackish to marine conditions (e.g., Brachirus orientalis).

The Achiridae are superficially similar to the Soleidae but the tail in much larger and more obvious, almost paddle-like. There is a clear separation between it and the fins surrounding the body. There are maybe 3 species traded, of which one, Catathyridium jenynsii, is a true freshwater fish. The others want brackish to marine conditions.

There's quite a bit more on these fish as well as a listing of the more common species (with links to their FishBase pages) in the Brackish FAQ. There is also another useful site just about these fish, but it's in Japanese so you'll have to make do with the pictures and bad translations via Babel Fish.

Cheers,

Neale

Nmonks, is there any way to clearly tell between the species?
 
Hmm, thanks neale. I did some comparisons, and it looks awfully like something between a harmandi and an orientalis. The fins extend all the way around the body, like the orientalis. But it has no clearly defined tail, like the harmandi. And there appears to be a patch on the underside of the body, not really a black patch but a patch of small, black dots. Any clue?

P.T.
 
Visit that Japanese page, and it has pictures of all the common species of Brachirus. B. harmandi looks "smoky" underneath, with speckles or patches appearing about halfway down the fish and getting most dense towards the tail. Apart perhaps from the odd "birthmark" or scar, none of the other Brachirus normally have any markings underneath.

Between B. orientalis and B. harmandi there is also the question of shape. B. orientalis is distinctly oval, whereas B. harmandi seems widest just behind the head and tapers back, giving a shape like a pinecone. B. orientalis is definitely more oval, so that the shape looks more like a platter. B. panoides also seems to be widely traded. It is similar to B. orientalis, but tapers like B. harmandi, only perhaps even more so, so that it looks like a leaf.

Cheers,

Neale
 
Speckles halfway down the fish is exactly what it is :D . Thanks neale, it's probably a positive ID isnt it? I'll check on the shape later, don't want to stress it too much on it's first day.

P.T.

ps: sooo sorry catfish are cool, got a little carried away. hope you learned some though, like i did :good:
 
Yep. A nice find. Should do well in neutral, medium hard freshwater through to slightly brackish (SG <1.005). Be sure and get the fish feeding before you introduce any other tankmates, and certainly don't keep with catfish likely to steal its dinner. Midwater and upper level fish are the ideal.

Cheers,

Neale

Speckles halfway down the fish is exactly what it is... it's probably a positive ID isnt it?
 
The Soleidae seem to be the most commonly traded ones in the UK. They are rounded and have small tail fins that merge into the fins along the edge of the body with only a slight pinching separating them. There are several species traded and most are difficult to identify. One that is easy to spot is Brachirus harmandi, becuase it is the only commonly traded sole with dark patches on the underside of the fish. It is a true freshwater fish. Most of the others want either slightly brackish (e.g.,


what is the recommended tank size?
 
Brachirus harmandi is a small species, ~10 cm long. Surface area is more important than depth. So for a single specimen, I'd plan for _at least_ a couple of square feet (30 cm x 60 cm). They aren't very active fish, but they do need lots of open sandy bottom to dig into, and as little clutter as you can get away with. Ideally, set up a tank with nothing at the bottom except perhaps a few smooth cobbles, mostly silica sand, with just a little coral sand stirred in to keep the pH from going to low. Then use floating plants (like hornwort) and add only surface dwelling tankmates, such as danios, halfbeaks, hatchetfish, sparkling gouramis, etc.

Cheers,

Neale

what is the recommended tank size?
 
so could I get a pair in a 90 by 30 by 45 (damn tall tanks!)
I'd say even more than two, probably four or five. They're not in the least territorial, and actually seem to enjoy being with their own kind. This might even help with their shyness, and encourage them to be a bit more active during the day. It's fun to watch one sole try and dig in on top of another!
also, what is that in your avatar ( i have lost sleep on wondering what it is!)
It's Kosh, a Vorlon. He's a myserious, contradictory character from a brilliant TV show called Babylon 5. He has to wear that costume so you won't recognise him. Underneath that outfit he's a... well, that would spoil the surprise. Vorlons consider themselves infallible voices of authority. They are, of course, wrong.

Cheers,

Neale
 
could you keep any flounders in a 14 UK Gallon until they were adults, and if so, then how many, and how many other tank-mates?
Mikey
Also how long could they go without being fed (i.e when you go on holiday etc.)???
 
You could perhaps keep some of the small (inch-long) juveniles in a 14 gallon tank, and provided they were the only fish in there, that would be agood place to settle them in and get them feeding. They would probably be fine in there for a year or so, depending on how fast they grew. They don't seem to grow fast in my experience.

Ultimately though, these are fish that grow from 10 to 20 cm, and need appropriately large tanks with plenty of surface area. Depth is unimportant.

Virtually all fish can go without food for a week or two if in good condition beforehand. Big predators can go for far longer. Turning the heater down (within the tolerances of the animal in question) will slow their metabolism as well. Young fish may be less resilient; even though they probably won't starve to death, their growth may be permanently stunted.

I ask a neighbour to feed my fishes twice a week when gone. I portion out some pellets and frozen into Dixie-cup type things, and leave them in the freezer. I then hide the rest to avoid "accidental" overfeeding.

Cheers,

Neale

could you keep any flounders in a 14 UK Gallon until they were adults, and if so, then how many, and how many other tank-mates?
Mikey
Also how long could they go without being fed (i.e when you go on holiday etc.)???
 

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