Things Really Don't Look Good

What type of cycle should I have?

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quantumnerd

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Okay, here's the scoop. I got a new 30gal tank for the small fishies. But then, things went kinda creepy.

I bought a large castle, and three fake plants for my fish to hide in.

I also have a submersible heater, and an undergravel filter that my fish like a lot. (they swim around the uplift tubes and the heater tube a lot for some reason)

I populated it with an orange platy, a siver platy, (both of the assorted variety, I think), and two gold barbs.

First I got slow sinking food, because it was the most floaty food I could get. I think I overfed them though for the first three days...
Now I have tropical semi-floating pellets. They should be better, but there's still food on the bottom. Not good.
The barbs don't eat very much, at least not when I'm watching.
To add to this, The water has gotten partially blurry. You can see it if you look a tad closely, that the water isn't all crystal clear.
Culturing the tank is a big "if" too.
Lastly, I bought some bacteria in a bottle, and I don't know if this stuff actually works.

Can anyone help me solve this recipe for disaster? Or is it just a regular culturing tank?
 
I don't even know what to do with stocking...

I'm planning on two platys, two swordtails, five gold barbs, and five tetras.

I wonder though if it's too much.
 
First I got slow sinking food, because it was the most floaty food I could get. I think I overfed them though for the first three days...
Now I have tropical semi-floating pellets. They should be better, but there's still food on the bottom. Not good.

How much did you feed? Since you didn't cycle your tank, ammonia toxicity will be a problem. I'll get on this in a second, but for now, only feed what they'll eat in about a minute every 2-3 days. They'll be able to live on this much food indefinitely. They'll be hungry, but they won't poop as much, as I'll get to.

The barbs don't eat very much, at least not when I'm watching.
To add to this, The water has gotten partially blurry. You can see it if you look a tad closely, that the water isn't all crystal clear.
Culturing the tank is a big "if" too.

As you decribe, the tank isn't cycled (pet store advice to leave it running does nothing at all to cycle the tank, an ammonia source is necessary. In your case, fish poop), and this is almost certainly to blame for both problems. Please review this thread:
<a href="http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=175355" target="_blank">http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=175355</a>
You'll need a liquid test kit ASAP. In the mean time, do a 50% water change and gravel vacuum regardless, the tank most certainly needs it.

The blurriness is likely a bacterial bloom. There's a lot of confusion and misinformation on this. The bloom itself is harmless, but is usually tied to conditions that aren't helpful. It's not the good bacteria catching up, as many stores and even some books say, it's the bacteria that break down fish poop catching up - it will actually cause an increase in the rate ammonia is released, which is bad for your fish.

If you've received the very common advice that water changes slow down a cycle, forget it. Dr. Hovanec actually found the ideal bacteria growth happens around 0.14ppm, which is half of what the above thread suggests as a maximum for ammonia and nitrite. Even the undetectable ammonia reading in a fully cycled tank is enough - an uncycled filter running alongside a mature one will become cycled over the course of a few weeks.


Lastly, I bought some bacteria in a bottle, and I don't know if this stuff actually works.

They range from snake oil (many brands contain the wrong bacteria or no bacteria at all) to unreliable. The most successful brands are refrigerated products, Bio-Spira (US, however due to the owner of the patent leaving the manufacturer, this product was recently repackaged and is no longer the refrigerated baggies it used to be) and Bactinettes (UK), but are still susceptible to all manner of mishandling. A small handful of brands are actually made quite effectively - the water in the bottle will be brown and smell bad. In this case, many are just dead bacteria, it's usually best to massively overdose (dump the whole bottle in) and hope for the best. Since you bought it, you might as well use it, but don't expect miracles, the overwhelming majority of experience on this forum has been that these products fail to live up to the claims on the bottle (if not fail entirely).


I don't even know what to do with stocking...

I'm planning on two platys, two swordtails, five gold barbs, and five tetras.

I wonder though if it's too much.

For now, don't add anything until the cycle is completed, and slowly afterwards to avoid a "mini-cycle" as your fish load exceeds the filter's bacteria capacity. Mini-cycles are handled just like a full cycle, but where a full cycle can last a month, a mini-cycle typically lasts a couple days to a week at most.

Once the tank is cycled, a good range to shoot for is 1" of adult size per US gallon as a starting point. This rule only applies to fish under 4-6 inches, and there's lots of reasons why it's not accurate, but it is an underestimate.

A tank that's been running for about 6 months can sustain 1.5" per gallon, sometimes up to 2" per gallon or slightly over - this takes a flawless maintenance routine and strong filtration, however. In a mature tank, there's more art than science in stocking, so monitoring water quality continuously through the tank's life is important.

To look at your stocking list:
2 platys: 4"
2 swordtails: 6"
5 gold barbs: 10"
5 tetras: 5-15", depending on species - I'm going to assume mid road like black skirt or serpae and say 10.

This brings you to about 30". This is a good stocking to aim at while the tank is still new. When it's mature, you should have some more room to play with - I'd suggest a group of 5-6 corydora catfish, and a centerpiece like a pair of dwarf cichlids or a pearl gourami, maybe even an angelfish. For gouramis or angelfish, research the tetra you decide on, as many are actually somewhat aggressive and will nip at slow moving fish with long fins. Angelfish are also likely to eat neon tetras. There's some tricks to being successful with the two, but the neons won't live as long as the angel, and afterwards you won't be able to introduce a new neon shoal.

With the platys and swordtails, I'd suggest getting all males, or two female platys and one female swordtail. It's a good idea with livebearers to have 2-3 females per male, as the males are very hyper about mating, and will hound females constantly. Having several females gives them some reprieve as he spreads his attentions around. Since platys and swordtails are closely related, they will readily cross breed, and you can count females of both species in the gender ratio.
 
I'm trying to culture the tank with few fish.

Since the filter said two fish, I assumed that meant two bigger ones, so I put four tinies.

I'll feed them scarcely now, thanks!

As for the test kit, I'll try to rush over to Big Al's and get one.

I'll do more frequent water changes then, THANKS!
 
You should be ok cycling with what you had, though less is always more when cycling with fish, you are a couple steps ahead of many similar threads :good:
 
I'm trying to culture the tank with few fish.

Since the filter said two fish, I assumed that meant two bigger ones, so I put four tinies.

I'll feed them scarcely now, thanks!

As for the test kit, I'll try to rush over to Big Al's and get one.

I'll do more frequent water changes then, THANKS!


where are you located, i am in ottawa and i go to big al's as well
 
Well, it's comforting to know that I'm not a complete doophus =P

Well, I'll be labouring away with those fish then.

Just wondering...

What degree of floating should my food have?

Floating-Semifloating-slowlysinking-sinking-rockheavy

I don't know what my fish should have, because some kinds they're too dumb to find, polluting the tank causing ammonia.
 
My staple for community fish is flake. They might be sluggish during the cycle, once water stats are in line they should perk up a bit. Just add one or two at first, then slowly drop it right over their heads once they're eating.

Most of what I feed my fish floats. I have sinking foods for bottomfeeders like catfish or plecs, and some slow sinking foods for cichlids, some of which won't come up to the top if they have fry to watch over.

If they're not eating for any reason, remove anything uneaten. During the cycle, you can just vac it up in water changes, after the cycle when the fish aren't stressed anymore... Well, with 4 livebearers in your stocking plans, I don't think food will go uneaten:)
 
Just to reinforce what Corleone (and Miss Wiggle in the linked article) are saying:

You have begun what we call a Fish-In cycle. These usually take about a month or more on average and can be a lot of work. Lana (in Canada, who has posted above) has a thread that can give you an idea of what's involved although you are lucky to have fewer fish by far than she does. You are correct that your first step is to find a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Many of us like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit, but the Nutrafin Mini-Master is also a good kit. Practice with the kit on your tap water as well as your tank water and post up the results here for Ammonia, Nitrite(NO2) and pH (at least), and Nitrate(NO3) also, especially for your source/tap water.

Your goal will be to learn correct water change skills and to determine by trial and error a water change routine that keeps your ammonia and nitrite readings always below 0.25ppm and as close to zero as possible. This could easily take quite a few large water changes initially and possibly 50% daily changes thereafter for the next month or so. With only 4 fish in a 30 US Gallon tank however, it may work out to be not as many or as big, you will just have to try it and see.

Ammonia causes permanent damage to fish gills and nitrite causes suffocation, leading to permanent nerve damage. The purpose of a biological filter (the thing that takes about a month to establish) is to rapidly and continuously remove these two poisons from the water your fish are swimming in, a function it will be able to do much faster and more effectively than the manual periodic method you are about to undertake.

Do you have another filter besides the undergravel one? The UG types can be extremely slow and difficult to cycle in my experience. Sorry to sound negative, I don't mean to be. The members here are very helpful and fun to work with. I'm sure you will get it worked out.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Hmmm

I've been thinking of ditching the UG filter, but not for a while.

If I do replace it, I'm going with external, since in my aquarium set up it's Reeeeally hard to reach inside and stuff. And a back hanger filter would force me to make ANOTHER cut in the back of my hood, which would probably make the back of my hood weak, which could make my hood fall in, which would make my LIGHT fall in, which could start a leak, electrocute me and my fishies, and...
[insert hell here]

As for the ammonia concentration, I'll see what's causing the buildup, if there is one, and how far from snake oil the bacs-in-the-bottles were =P
 
Well, one word of comfort in there, your fish will probably be fine unless the florescent tube breaks in the water and leaks mercury. The tank is quite well insulated - water itself is not a great conductor, and glass is a near perfect insulator, plus all the hardware that touches it like the heater and filter are insulated by glass and/or plastic. So when the light falls in, the only thing that'll get electrocuted is you when you reach in for it. :rolleyes:

Be sure to unplug it if it does fall in. I've had lights fall in a couple times and didn't get hurt, but it is dangerous if you're not careful.
 
Yeeeeaaaah... Hope the little kids never visit while I have this thing running. Like "OOOHPS! SHORRY! I didn't know that pulverising fish killed them! I also didn't know that adding household chemicals, and drilling holes in the lid while the fish are in there was bad too! Shorry! Why don't I go get your light that fell in... *reaches* BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTT"
And I get sued by the kid's angry parents =P

Anyways, I'm debating wheather to have a fishless cycle. A fish-in cycle is a lot of work, but it is simple.
With ammonia, though, it's a bit like a chemistry prodject that takes two months. Drop the test tube: start over... :crazy:
 
I might be behind your posts, do you still have your fish? The fish you had mentioned are reasonably hardy and should stand up to a fish-in cycle if you manage ammonia levels. Fish-in cycles aren't ideal, but if you get on top of them quickly and keep them in check, fish can come through them without serious lasting harm.

If for any reason you lose them, definitely switch to a fishless cycle. It is better for fish, but it's also good practice for general tank procedures (a fish-in cycle is, as well, granted).
 
Yep, I am definitely sticking with the fish in. I feed them once every two days, with half a penny size of pellets. The fish seem to be strange acting though...
One barb started thrashing about near the other barb, hitting his head against the other one's. That was weird...
The platys are near the surface now, and they look mighty odd. Lethargic, but they will move if I put my hand next to their eyes.
Also, all the food that I left on the bottom cause of over feeding of heavy foods... it's gone. All. Gone.

Should I feed them more?

Thanks for the help!
 
Don't feed them more - it's a common trap to fall into with fish, I've done it myself, and still have to resist the temptation.

Food left on the bottom should be removed, since you're in a cycle and doing regular water changes, you should also be vacuuming the upper layers of gravel as well. Some of the food may have been eaten, but most dry fish foods will eventually dissolve, rot, or draw fungus if left in long.

Check your water levels again. Lethargic behavior can be a result of continued ammonia exposure, hanging at the surface in particular can be a result of nitrite exposure, which reduces the blood's ability to carry oxygen and makes the fish feel like they're suffocating. You may need to increase the frequency of water changes.
 

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