There's Something Strange In The Neighbourhood

Miss Wiggle

Practically perfect in every way
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
13,057
Reaction score
5
Location
York
Hi guys,

slightly random query on someones thread in the new to the hobby forum, wondering if you lot can shed any light on it.

when they take water from the tap the ammonia reads 0ppm, 12hrs later it reads either 0.25ppm or 0.50ppm and we're trying to work out why it is rising.

we've checked that it's not the dechlor releasing ammonia from the chloramine bond (i.e. ran some water, tested it, dechlorinated it, waited half an hr or so, tested it again, no rise in levels, it only raises after about 12 hrs. same thing is happening when you don't dechlorinate the water), we've also checked it's not the container by using various different containers some of them brand new. The results have also been double checked with another test kit so it's not a dodgy reading.

now the practical issue here is that any mature cycled filter (which his is) should be able to process this little blip of ammonia after a water change no problem, plenty of people have tap water with 0.25ppm of ammonia in and manage fine. His isn't and we can't fathom why, I'm starting to wonder if this is a skewed reading for some reason or maybe isn't actually ammonia but something else that the test kit can pick up. Can you think of anything that this could be?

I'm thinking, most water uses in the home (washing, drinking, cooking etc) are short term, so water companies often add things to the water which will mean when they come out of the tap they are within set parameters for the next few hours, but these things will either gass off or be used up a while later (experienced this with water companies using pH stabilisers which only work for a day or so after the water is drawn, then it'll rise/fall to it's 'natural' level). So I'm thinking is there anything that water companies use to do this for ammonia?
 
I've been thinking about this off and on all evening, MW, and I simply don't know. I know that a lot of people don't like the chlorine/ammonia smell in their water, so I wouldn't consider it unlikely at all that there may be some masking agent added to the water. What that agent could be or how it could affect an aquarium ammonia test kit, I really don;t know.

(Even though I didn't have any answers, I still wanted to reply so that you wouldn't think that I'm ignoring you)
 
I've been thinking about this off and on all evening, MW, and I simply don't know. I know that a lot of people don't like the chlorine/ammonia smell in their water, so I wouldn't consider it unlikely at all that there may be some masking agent added to the water. What that agent could be or how it could affect an aquarium ammonia test kit, I really don;t know.

(Even though I didn't have any answers, I still wanted to reply so that you wouldn't think that I'm ignoring you)


thanks Bignose


it's certainly a puzzler isn't it!!


well let me know if you come up with anything! :good:
 
Yes, and I have no further ideas about it either as I helped MW speculate about it in the original thread over in New to the Hobby.

Would be interested if any of our members with an interest in water quality, troubleshooting and the like come up with any ideas!

~~waterdrop~~
 
ok here is the basic description, those of you want the formulas let me know.......
chlorine is added to tap water, when the free chlorine does its job it converts to chloramine which inturn converts to ammonia which is released.
its how swimming pool disinfection works.
 
yeah i know, we've checked if thats the case and it isn't. i'm positive what we're seeing here is not the excess ammonia from the chloramine bond.
 
the water may contain ammonium or ammonium hydroxide, could this fall out of it's compound and become ammonia in any way?
 
ok lets put it another way

the breakdown in cloramine can aid the release of NH40H combine that with trace elements of H2SO4
and you get (NH4)2SO4
or.................
now if there is NH40H in the water by warming it up ie raising it from tap temperature to room temperature you get NH3 as in NH4OH --> NH3 + H2O

does that make sense??

or does my previous answer make more sense?? because they both mean the same

remember the cloramine breakdown can take over 24 hours to complete and only happens with contact with air. ie not in the pipes.
next to note is what time of year, weather, where the resevoirs are and what part of the country. all this make a difference

also what is the ph doing?
 
ok here is another one
the clorination process and by products are spit into 3
1. monochloramine, if the water ph fluctuates towards ph 8 you will get ammonia release. WILL NOT BE REMOVED BY DECHLORINATORS BUT WILL DISSAPATE AFTER 24 HOURS AS FREE AMMONIA

2. Dichloramine, byproduct of chloramine and nitrogen trichloride. which is part of the cycle with ammonia, APPEARS AT PH LESS THAN 7. WILL NOT BE REMOVED BY DECHLORINATORS BUT CARBON WILL REDUCE IT

3. free chlorine, the base disinfectant before any reactions. WILL BE REMOVED BY DECHLORINATORS

it depends on the area where the water is from and the breakpoint chlorination ratio used. if its london forget it and live with the ammonia!!! :hyper:
 
so there's other parts of chloramine which will not be affected by the application of dechlorinator but will just release ammonia over time?

is there any way to test if this is what's happening?
 
yes
buy a palintest9 and dpd1 and dpd3 tablets subtract dpd1 from dpd3 that will give you the reading you are after

think my palintest7 kit cost about £800 when new, the palintest9 is a bit dearer

dont ya just love water chemistry..... you should see the other sh1t the water companys put in there..... hypochloric acid to reduce the ph!!! :hyper: :hyper:
 
:lol:

guessing that's not a practical solution for most people


any other way to find out?


is there any reason why this extra ammonia would not be processed as per usual by the filter?
 
:lol:

guessing that's not a practical solution for most people, suppose not but i use mine for my everyday job


any other way to find out?
nope, well not really but you could spend £150 on a comparitor instead and use the same tablets (fishkeeping test kits are known as comparitors)


is there any reason why this extra ammonia would not be processed as per usual by the filter? the waste free ammonia produced from the reaction is realeased as a gas and not soluble like in fish waste
 
hmmmmm now that's really interesting, if it's released as a gas should it gas off from the water? can it still be consumed by the filter bacteria?
 
i wont go into the science as it baffles me most of the time but the byproduct ammonia from monochloramine which is the byproduct of ammonia (and other things)and chlorine evaporates naturaly form the water as its the chloramine thats still working.
fish poo wont as its not the byproduct of the breakpoint chlorination process. ie its added later and therefor needs the bacteria to break it down dichloramine shouldnt realy be found in the tank as its less common in drinking water but very common in swimming pools and can only be removed by dilution, monochloramine can build up in heavy use pools and poorly maintained tanks/poor tap water.

the old saying goes crap in crap out. so if your tap water is crap you will only get crap no matter what you add. the only real way is RO as long as its maintained

really unless its keeping you awake at night ignore what happens to tap water if left to stand because as well as the exchange out of the water it absorbs lots of crap as well like household dust (skin cells) which produce ammonia very quickly

lets just call it the black magic voodoo of water chemistry :drool:
 

Most reactions

Back
Top