The Yeast Co2 Method

[stevereade]

Awesome write up AC, I'll be following this and prob trying it myself in the next few days as the poxy little Nutrafin bottle is to small and the rates are everywhere, lucky its not causing algae I suppose. Oh one more thing, is that a drill on the right hand side in pic 1? If so are you living in the dark ages dude? lol

 

[stevereade]

Oh, one more thing, what bbm are you getting from the 400g/1tsp of yeast mixture?
I guess you don't need the bubble counter if you use the Nutrafin ladder? Take it they are ok to use? My bubbles are huge at the bottom and real tiny by the time they reach the top, only problem is I have to clean the bottom rung every couple of days, would an air stone be better? Oh and should I put it in one of my 3 filter compartments instead of in the tank below my filter inlet?

 

[SuperColey1]

Oh one more thing, is that a drill on the right hand side in pic 1? If so are you living in the dark ages dude? lol

Yep. I like that drill for this sort of thing. The cordless was left in the cupboard for this job

I've also got some real saws as well as electric ones

Oh and a few pens and pencils as well as the keyboard

Oh, one more thing, what bbm are you getting from the 400g/1tsp of yeast mixture?

Each bottle at peak approx 40 bubbles per minute. The 2 average hopefully around 50-60

I guess you don't need the bubble counter if you use the Nutrafin ladder?

Always use a bubble counter with a yeast setup. Doesn't matter what the diffuser is. It will catch residue that goes up the hose from the yeast cannister. That 'snot' that you are cleaning off the end of the hose and bottom step. You wouldn't get that if you had a bubble counter.

Take it they are ok to use? My bubbles are huge at the bottom and real tiny by the time they reach the top. would an air stone be better?

The ladder is actually more efficient at diffusion than the ceramic disc. however with the ceramic disc it is easier to circulate that saturated water where if you use any high current near the ladder the bubble will come off the ladder's steps

Doesn't matter where you put the ladder. The bubble getting smaller is because CO2 is fully going into solution. You may as well have that somewhere that the filter outlet can push around the tank rather than feeding already saturated CO2 water into the filter. With a disc it is different. some people aren't happy with the mist so they use the filter to further mash it up into solution. the ladder has already diffused CO2 into solution apart from that 4% that remains at the top of the ladder.

Put it somewhere as close to the substrate as possible in the line of the outflow. It wants to be positioned so that the outflow will take that CO2 saturated water around the tank but not positioned so that the outflow blows the bubbles off the ladder. Try different positions till you get it perfect.

An airstone is near useless. looks the same as an atomiser but the pores are much bigger and the bubbles that come out are much bigger. they will shoot to the surface due to their higher bouyancy and go pop. Bye bye most of the CO2.

Oh and should I put it in one of my 3 filter compartments instead of in the tank below my filter inlet?

Nope see above.

I personally used to do the same with the disc as I would with a ladder. put it in a position where the circulation moves it around the water. The only difference being you can put the disc directly in the flow as it will still diffuse as it should. The ladder has to be positioned carefully so that the bubble doesn't leave the ladder.

You can't point a Koralia at a ladder like you can the discs. Its a bit trickier but can work better if you get it right. Ugly things though

AC

 

[Dave Spencer]

The tank is looking really good Andy!

You may not get me on DIY CO2, but I know where to go for some "needle leaf" Java fern.

Dave.

 

[SuperColey1]

Cheers Dave. I've been spreading my seed all over europe. Needle Fern everywhere. lol

The tank went through a really heavy prune about a month ago. Needs to grow in now

AC

 

[stevereade]

Awesome
I just went and bought me one of those drills from an antique store so I could do the job properly lol

 

[llamalord305]

I voting for a pin on this one.
Just one little recommendation: From what I've heard, DIY CO2 works faster and shorter in warmer temps, and slower and longer in colder temps. I've never tested it, but it makes complete sense. Maybe something for you to test/try?

 

[ian]

i think we should wait to see if AC concurs the DIY before its pinned, see if it fails and he gets loads of BBA or it doesn't actually do anything, we haven't really learnt much that we don't already know.

 

[stevereade]

Where can I get some of that needle leaf java fern???

 

[elisew]

Thanks for posting AC, what an interesting read!

Will keep an eye on this thread to see how things progress

 

[lljdma06]

i think we should wait to see if AC concurs the DIY before its pinned, see if it fails and he gets loads of BBA or it doesn't actually do anything, we haven't really learnt much that we don't already know.

I don't agree, even if it doesn't work with a larger system, it still serves as a darn good write up for DIY CO2, no matter if the information can subsequently only be applied to smaller tanks.

Yeast-based systems have worked well in the past. There are some older scapes at TFF that feature beautiful larger systems that I think,
ran on yeast. I'll have to dig them up, as I'd like to have a look at the filtration on some of those.

llj

 

[SuperColey1]

Just one little recommendation: From what I've heard, DIY CO2 works faster and shorter in warmer temps, and slower and longer in colder temps. I've never tested it, but it makes complete sense.

No need to test. It works faster at warm (not very hot) temps, slower at cool temps. However we are not after making it work faster or slower. That was one of the key points I made earlier. We want a constant so it doesn't matter what speed it works at. You adjust the yeast content to counter the temperature.

So for me I want it hidden in my cabinet. temp will be ambient or a degree above max. In the good old days we would put it on top of the canopy positioned above the ballast. That would mean it was hotter, maybe 5+ degrees higher. In those days we thought this was an advantage.

However whilst working faster it would also mean that a bottle lasted a shorter time. If the process is faster then you change more often. Therefore you would reduce the yeast to slow the reaction down.

So counter productive in the end unless you are happy changing the mix every 4 days rather than 7. Put it wherever you want. Ignore the temperature and adjust the yeast to suit the location.

see if it fails and he gets loads of BBA or it doesn't actually do anything, we haven't really learnt much that we don't already know.

BBA is already disappearing. Gonna have to take a photo of it before its gone to show before and after. There was a lovely 5mm diameter bit on one stone which is now about 2mm. The shrimp are on BBA as soon as it starts dying off. That is within 1cm of the substrate to so proves the CO2 is getting down the bottom well.

The point of the post wasn't really to teach the method as there are many sources for that on the internet. It was to prove what many including yourself (Ian) and myself believe(d) that yeast is no alternative on anything but Nanos (<20USG)

Where can I get some of that needle leaf java fern???

Mmmm I can't remember what my website is called. I think it's in my signature. That may give you a clue where this stuff grows on mass an may well be found

Other than that there are some good sellers in Malaysia.

AC

 

[ian]

The point of the post wasn't really to teach the method as there are many sources for that on the internet. It was to prove what many including yourself (Ian) and myself believe(d) that yeast is no alternative on anything but Nanos (<20USG)

thats fair enough, and i wasn't trying to dis the method and i certainly wasn't dising the write up . I just think there is alot of variables that need to be taken into account about using this method. I will say 'not' to use on anything under over 20g, as through my and others experience, we have been plaqued with BBA and its a pain in the rear changing the bottles...theres the first variable. As you know you'll have to get the mix bang on everytime and you're gonna get fluctuations.

Another is the 'flow', i know on here there's not to many people who are using lily pipes, as from the mouths of Amano and Barr, lily pipes are the best. People might not get as good as result as you're getting Andy. It all comes down to experience and knowledge of how the 'system' is gonna work, to be able to get flow right around the tank.

You also have to take into account what you have in the tank...what i mean is, in your tank Andy the clean up crew is immense! not everyone are gonna have a clean up crew as good as yours.

I'm just throwing a little critique in, and i'm sure you'll like to have a little critique lol

I'm not one for writing loads and loads on internet forums, thats why my posts are more short and straight to the mark, i'm sorry about that, i'll have to pop up at some point and have a gleg to see whats going on

having said all this, i hope you do concur the DIY method and give newbies some hope of growing lush plants quickly.

ian

ps, can i just ask AC, why i haven't seen this on any of the other planted forums?

 

[SuperColey1]

I just think there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into account about using this method. I will say 'not' to use on anything under over 20g, as through my and others experience, we have been plagued with BBA and its a pain in the rear changing the bottles...theres the first variable. As you know you'll have to get the mix bang on everytime and you're gonna get fluctuations.

Indeed, that why I am trying to remove the variables. Flow is nothing to do with the yeast method. If you have poor flow then pressurised will have the same problems. However I did write earlier that the first 2 days I used the old Tetratec spraybar and strainer setup to see if it would work that way too. It did just as well as the Lily pipes.

The variables ahouldn't really come into play here. The flow, method of diffusion, positioning etc is all down to the user and will affect any injection whether it be pressurised or yeast.

The only variables that I am trying to sort are the ones directly related to the yeast method. i.e., the recipe (for my temperature) and trying to get it as consistent as possible. therefore more bottles running a longer peak period will be better than fewer running very fast so I will alter the mix a little each week and add another bottle to counter if necessary and the alter these 2 in the initial write up so the people who 'scan' don't follow the 'draft'

Clean up crew doesn't really come into it here. Yes they remove excess food, yes they remove some organics in the tank but they also produce ammonia. Ammonia is the trigger and that is countered on EI with the 50% water changes. Whilst people will say that shrimp and snails will produce minimal ammonia they don't know the quantities of critters involved here where you do. 1000 or so shrimp will produce at least as much ammonia as a few fish etc.

BBA as you say yourself is the big problem with yeast. That and staghorn. Both are algaes that Cherry shrimp and snails will not eat unless it starts to die. So they only clean up the stuff that dies off if the CO2 is working. So in effect they are not doing anything other than 'tidying up' after the CO2 has done the killing.

I'm not overly convinced Lily pipes are better than spraybars. Look 100x better aesthetically but the glass is thicker than the acrylic. The internal diameter of the pipes is less than that of the 'stock' acrylic piping that comes with a filter and therefore will reduce flow a little. The aesthetic is important to me.

Add to that the intake 'slits' even on the ones that run like a ladder all the way up the intake are nowhere near the total area of a stock strainer, so again flow restriction. That is just an opinion and not measured at all.

Spraybars and Lilys both follow the same flow dynamic of blasting the water to the opposite side, it hits the glass and is pushed down then returns along the bottom. That is why the outlet and inlet are always supposed to be together and not seperated. You want the water to go into the filter from the same area that the outlet is pushing the 'fresh' water away from.

Can i just ask AC, why i haven't seen this on any of the other planted forums?

Well spotted


AC

 

[ian]

thats all fair enough, Andy. So...at this present moment you're bigging the DIY up, how long are you going to run it?


and the most important question, are you enjoying it?