The Return Of.... Whitespot!

[Aisha]

HI....

A few weeks back for some reason (maybe slightly overstocked tank?although i thought it was reasonable) my tanks ammonia levels went high, before or after this WHITESPOT affected my neons and congos.... they died two days after i detected whitespot... The tank was being treated but nevertheless all the fish eventually were infected... atleast two fish died each day there after... for about 3 or 4days...

It was very sad watchin them die off like this, especially when i was trying to rectify the problem..

Two mollies and another fish (unknown species) survived and recovered soon as the last few passed..

it has been a few weeks now and i thought they were doing OK, the water was perfect..

Yesterday when i fed the fish one of the black mollies and the other fish gulped down the food as if they have never been fed b4... the larger molly of the two started to bully and chase the slightly smaller one away for the food...

Since this time the bullying hasnt stopped and even the larger fish has begun to chase him...

I realise my black molly has experienced alot of stress due to the bullying and bcoz of this he has whitespot again.. i have even noticed that the larger fish has chased the other molly (the bully!)..

Its awful seeing this because the mollies (male) got on sooo well and always played around, even the larger fish was content and dint really bother the others.. i feel as if they have changed since the deaths of the other fish...

When we bought the mollies we had no idea of the sexes, and when one of the mollies died (3 alltogether) we realised she was female and the other two were male, could the bullying be because there is no female molly in the tank...

I just HOPE the whitespot doesnt prove to be fatal this time around..

 

[5teady_2012]

Treat the whitespot asap...

The mollies really need to be 1 to 3 ration ( 3 being females) as im sure u know, and yes, the the bullying was probably cos there was not enough females in and they would of been fightinh for her.

 

[Colin_T]

If you have whitespot in the tank again then you didn’t kill it all off last time. The best thing you can do is make sure the fish are kept at the correct temperature for the species, about 24-26C for most tropical fishes. Then treat the fish with an appropriate whitespot remedy. Continue treating the tank for about a week after the spots have disappeared.

You can raise the water temperature a few degrees (maximum temp is about 30C), increasing it speeds up the parasite’s lifecycle. This causes it to develop quicker and die off sooner. However, the temp should only be raised after the medication has been added to the tank. If you turn the temp up and don't have medication in the water then the disease organisms grow faster and spread more rapidly, causing more damage to the fish.

Increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels in the tank. Medications and high temperatures reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of the water, so the more surface turbulence the higher the oxygen levels will be.

You don't have to increase or change the temperature to treat the fish. I often leave the temp at about 26C and just treat the fish for about 10-14 days. "Waterlife Protozin" will treat it, as will any medication with copper in.

Keep treating the fish for a week after the spots have gone. The whitespot parasite has 3 stages to its lifecycle.
1) the white spots on the fish
2) 2) the spots fall off the fish and multiply in the gravel
3) 3) the cysts in the gravel rupture open releasing thousands of new parasites to re-infect the fish.
The parasite can only be killed during the 3rd stage when they are free swimming and before they attach to a fish.

To work out the volume of water in the tank
measure Length x Width x Height in cm
divide by 1000
equals volume in litres

When measuring the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level. If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove them before measuring the height.

Before you treat the tank do a 50% water change and complete gravel clean. This will reduce the gunk in the tank and allow the medication to work more effectively. It will also lower the pathogen count in the water and mean there are less nasties around to infect the fish.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating otherwise it will absorb the medication out of the water.

Make sure any new water is free of chlorine and has a similar temperature & PH to the tank.

Male livebearers like mollies are horrible things because all they think about is sex. They will try to breed with anything n the tank and the bigger males will often harass the smaller ones. They will also pester the heck out of the females. If you want male & female mollies in the same tank try to get a group of females and only one or two males. You want as many females as possible. This helps reduce the stress from the males and gives some females a breather while the other females get hassled.

The following link has a section on sexing livebearers. It is at the bottom right of the page under the heading “Mollies, Swords, Guppies & Platies”

http/perthaquarium.com.au/fish/tropical_...ater_fish.phtml

 

[Aisha]

Thanks for the advice!!!!

When our tank was first set up, the mollies were one of the first to get... i was very unexperienced and relied upon the ppl my LFS! I didnt realise about the ratio until after when i was able to identify the sexes, the female seemed fine during the time we had until her death... I have actually noticed activity on the larger molly gonad..

Last time around i did go through the steps you have advised.. however i will use the treatment after its cleared...

The plan was to get more fish this weekend (get more mollies) but that wikll have to wait now..

THANKS!

(are amano shrimps affected by whitespot??)

 

[Colin_T]

Shrimp don't get whitespot because the whitespot parasite is unable to dig into the shrimp's shell. This means the parasite is unable to feed and it dies without a host. Be careful about the medication you use if you have shrimp in the tank. Anything with copper in will kill shrimp and many medications will also affect them.
It might be better to move the shrimp into another tank during treatment and then do a few water changes after the disease is gone before putting them back.

 

[Aisha]

Thanks for that... well i dont currently have shrimps but ive set everything up for them (place for the to shed and hide) its just a case of getting them now..
So IF anything else happens (in the future) and i need to medicate, what would be sufficient for the shrimps, do they have to be at a certain temp, with filter and things like that?

Just as an update.. the fish seem to be alot more friendly with each other compared to before..

thanks

 

[Bignose]

Shrimp don't get whitespot because the whitespot parasite is unable to dig into the shrimp's shell.

Well, that and shrimp aren't fish. Ich parasitizes fish and only fish. Ich has to have fish in it's life cycle or it will die.

------------

All of Colin's advice in post #3 is dead on. it is all good.

But, the most important part -- that I really want to make sure you don't overlook -- is that continue treating for quite some time after all symptoms disappear!!! All symptoms don't just mean the disappearance of every spot, also any flicking or scratching behavior that the fish may be exhibiting. Once every single symptom of ich is gone -- all the spots, all the scratching, etc. -- then the clock starts on the extra time. The extra time is to ensure 100% destruction of every single ich organism. At least 7 full days -- and if the fish can take it, I think that another 4 or 5 in addition would be spectacular.

------------

One final note, if you have some die offs and want to replace the fish, or just want some new fish -- even if they aren't showing any symptoms, new fish can be carriers to reintroduce ich to your tank. Ich doesn't come in with the water (despite the fact that many other Internet sites say "ich is in all water" -- there has been no scientific evidence to ever show that it is true, and many reasons to believe it is completely false. Read [URL="http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml"]http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml[/URL] as a good introduction as to why it is false), it has to be introduced. So, what you want to do if make sure that your new fish aren't carrying ich in with them. The best way to do this is via a quarantine tank. This is a small tank or even something like a plastic tub that is set up where you will keep the new fish out of the main tank for at least 3 weeks, and 6 or 8 weeks is even better. So that you can see if the new fish develop any disease or issues. That way, you only have to treat those new fish, and not the entire main tank. A quarantine tank is a complete necessity unless you really like treating for disease or a real gambler.

 

[Aisha]

Thanks for the advise, appreciated..

I think it was introduced by new fish but they were quaranteed at my lfs before they sell them..

Thanks for the web link, im sure ill find it usefull.

Aisha

 

[Bignose]

I think it was introduced by new fish but they were quaranteed at my lfs before they sell them..

That may be, but it doesn't really help you at home. A lot of times at the LFS all the water is treated in the same place -- that also means that any disease any one fish has gets spread to every tank. It cannot be helped.

Look, I obviosuly don't know your LFS, and cannot speak with any accuracy about the character of the workers there. But, anything your LFS tells you has to be taken with a grain of salt. They are there as a business, looking to sell you something. If telling you that they quarantine their new fish before sale looks like it is going to get them a sale, they will probably say that. Did you ask what exactly they meant by quarantine? 24 hours? 2 days? I can almost 100% guarantee is wasn't 3 to 6 weeks in a tank completely isolated from the rest of the shop's water supply.

Even if they had done 3 to 6 weeks of isolation, how can you be 100% sure?

And then, if they put the fish back into the water that is treated at the common point -- what was to prevent some disease that may have already been in the shop to spread to them? The simple truth is that you cannot be sure of the fish's disease status unless you verify it for yourself.

Unless you want to take the risk of reintroduction, a quarantine at home is the only way. Doing it yourself is the only way to be 100% sure. 3 to 6 weeks long. It doesn't have to be an expensive proposition -- just a small tub in a corner with a heater. That's all that is really necessary. You don't need decorations or substrate or even a filter so long as you do large daily water changes (around 75%). And, if you do get a disease, it will save you money since you only have to treat the smaller volume of the Q-tank rather than the large volume of the main tank. You will use less medication to achieve the therapeutic concentration.

 

[Aisha]

Im new to the world of aquariums and learning each step of the way, when you ask for someones professional opinion about things then you would think theyd give it straight. I know they did some kind of quaranteen because i wanted certain fish and they wouldnt sell me it till atleast a week later (but i dont know how long they had them there prior) they never mentioned quaranteen i just assume so after hearing what you have said, yes they are a business but there must have been a reason why they refused to sell until a later date. Now i didnt know much about that kind of stuff or even how long there supposed to quaranteen, there a large shop that obviously know what they are doing, like anyone whos new to something they do have some sort of trust in someone who has so much experience compared to yourself.

Thanks for the advice, im sure i will take extra precautions next time i introduce new fish.

Do you have to quaranteen shrimps as i am looking to get some at some point or other, most likely the amano shrimp

 

[Bignose]

yes, quarantine (just a suggestion, but your posts would be much easier to read if spell-checked. "quaranteen" makes my brain confused) everything that it living that goes into a tank. That means shrimp, and even live plants. The shrimp and plants may not be affected by fish disease or other pests, but then can often be carriers.

I understand trusting the store to start with. I am just saying that they aren't always biased towards keeping your fish as healthy and happy as possible. A lot of times, the two motivations coincide -- but a shop's primary motivation is the make money. This means shops will often recommend things that are only marginally needed or sometimes things that aren't needed at all. A lot of the motivation to make money means that a decent amount of time, the employees aren't very knowledgeable, because the owner cannot spend to money to hire expert help. They are limited to paying low wages and so they sometimes don't have very good help. The employees are often trying their best to help, but their lack of knowledge causes them to recommend unnecessary stuff. A prime example is aquarium salt. There is no reason a freshwater tank should need salt, but LFSs still sell mountains of the stuff. And lot of employees still tell people that "every tank needs at least a little salt". It is well-meaning advice, but just plain wrong.

The good news is that you've found what I consider to be absolutely one of the best forums about fish. Definitely the best generalist forum. And, the people here don't have a bias towards selling you something, they have your fish's health first and foremost. So, if anything else comes up, please don't hesitate to ask. That's pretty much exactly what the forums are for. There is almost nothing that you will encounter that hasn't happened to someone on here, so someone should have an answer for you almost all the time.

 

[Colin_T]

yes, quarantine (just a suggestion, but your posts would be much easier to read if spell-checked. "quaranteen" makes my brain confused).

lol

 

[Aisha]

yes, quarantine (just a suggestion, but your posts would be much easier to read if spell-checked. "quaranteen" makes my brain confused) everything that it living that goes into a tank. That means shrimp, and even live plants. The shrimp and plants may not be affected by fish disease or other pests, but then can often be carriers.

I understand trusting the store to start with. I am just saying that they aren't always biased towards keeping your fish as healthy and happy as possible. A lot of times, the two motivations coincide -- but a shop's primary motivation is the make money. This means shops will often recommend things that are only marginally needed or sometimes things that aren't needed at all. A lot of the motivation to make money means that a decent amount of time, the employees aren't very knowledgeable, because the owner cannot spend to money to hire expert help. They are limited to paying low wages and so they sometimes don't have very good help. The employees are often trying their best to help, but their lack of knowledge causes them to recommend unnecessary stuff. A prime example is aquarium salt. There is no reason a freshwater tank should need salt, but LFSs still sell mountains of the stuff. And lot of employees still tell people that "every tank needs at least a little salt". It is well-meaning advice, but just plain wrong.

The good news is that you've found what I consider to be absolutely one of the best forums about fish. Definitely the best generalist forum. And, the people here don't have a bias towards selling you something, they have your fish's health first and foremost. So, if anything else comes up, please don't hesitate to ask. That's pretty much exactly what the forums are for. There is almost nothing that you will encounter that hasn't happened to someone on here, so someone should have an answer for you almost all the time.

LOL, i just quickly typed and didnt realise. I have always ended up talking with either the owner or the owner/manager of the fish section.. my enquiries usually end up being complex for the other workers to fully answer or help me with.

What i do know has come from books the web and this forum, i never soley rely upon one source (a force of uni research habits i gues!)

Appreciated

 

[Don Trinko]

Just a few more ideas;
1. Mollies and many of the live beares get ick (white spot) easier than many of the egg layers. Years ago if you kept mollies you added a little salt to the water and kept the temperature higher. ( 78 to 80)
2. Overcrowding will make ick spread quicker
3. Older fish ( because they are weaker) get ick easier
4. If you see ick on 1 fish isolate it ASAP. If you see it on many fish you might as well treat the whole tank.
5. as mentioned; If you have shrimp you can not use any treatments that cotain copper. Malachite green is a good tratment for ick but it is messy and will stain the silicone and other things in the tank.
6. Also as mentioned; You have to continue to treat after the ick apears to be gone. ( not sure how long but probably 5 to 10 days) Good Luck; This is a great hobby , Don T.

 

[Bignose]

4. If you see ick on 1 fish isolate it ASAP. If you see it on many fish you might as well treat the whole tank.

I strongly disagree with this. If one fish has it, it is best to just assume to entire tank has it. The ich are free swimming and aren't picking on one particular fish. They will latch on to their first target of opportunity.

If one fish is showing spots, you can almost guarantee 100% that the other have them somewhere. The spots may just be too small to see. Or they might be some place hidden like in their gills.

It is probably best to just bite the bullet and treat the entire tank. The rest of the tank is in all likelihood infected anyway.