The "red Clay Method"

[coolie]

You may also find that if you test for iron in the water, the results will be high, but it will actually be picking up suspended microscopic particles (nearly all) as opposed to iron in solution, which again, would be not the type the plants can use.

 

[SO19Firearms]

You may also find that if you test for iron in the water, the results will be high, but it will actually be picking up suspended microscopic particles (nearly all) as opposed to iron in solution, which again, would be not the type the plants can use.

 
Don't underestimate all the beasties in the water solublising stuff like  "insoluble" Iron Phosphates etc.

 

[DerpPH]

DerPH, have you done any testing on this?
 
The key issue being, redness caused by iron oxide is a form of iron not easily accessible to plants, a bit like Iron sulphates, not very useful to plants at all.
Iron chelates are more readily taken up but even those and EDTA bound solutions made by aquarium suppliers and manufacturers require
some chemical or biological processing before they can be absorbed. By far the best sort of iron are the citrated iron, this is the kind of iron which actually does the work
biologically in the stems and leaves of the plant itself.

 
 
Nothing frequent water changes can't fix. The heavy metals on my tank before were kept at bay by doing twice a week water changs

 

[Paradise3]

Just a question - I have the red clay powder and my sand now(was on offer - 12.5kg's for £20 instead of the above price) does anyone thing it would work without the soil? Just wondering as I can't get the soil for a bit now and my tank is in dire need of something...

 

[DerpPH]

Just a question - I have the red clay powder and my sand now(was on offer - 12.5kg's for £20 instead of the above price) does anyone thing it would work without the soil? Just wondering as I can't get the soil for a bit now and my tank is in dire need of something...

 
 
Yeah. But I dont know about your plants though. What type of plants are you going to put? How about starting with some low mantainance plants. Like Dwarf sag, bacopa and etc. Then switch to some better plants when you have the clay powder.

 

[Paradise3]

 

Just a question - I have the red clay powder and my sand now(was on offer - 12.5kg's for £20 instead of the above price) does anyone thing it would work without the soil? Just wondering as I can't get the soil for a bit now and my tank is in dire need of something...

 
 
Yeah. But I dont know about your plants though. What type of plants are you going to put? How about starting with some low mantainance plants. Like Dwarf sag, bacopa and etc. Then switch to some better plants when you have the clay powder.
 

 
I have the clay powder lol and I have all low-tech plants. Not getting any high tech ones.

 

[snazy]

I would not skip the soil Paradise. Clay isn't rich on nutrients, except for iron and sillicates maybe. But clay has very high caution exchange capacity to store nutritients, which means in time it will get loaded with stuff produced by fish waste but that will take many months. Hence why many clay substrates like laterite, cat litter, akadama are famous. Commercially sold soils are also not "soil" but clay particles artificially loaded with nutritients and baked, even the famous ADA Amazonia. Powder clay isn't very good as a soil substrate because it can escape and mix with water once you disturb the substrate. It's not a "baked" clay that doesn't dissolve. You don't want an orange tank

Garden soil on another hand is real soil. It's way cheaper than commercial substrates, is loaded with nutritients and has even better caution exchange capacity than clay so it get's re-loaded with nutritients over time too. Plants in nature grow in such substrate rather than clay. The powdered clay just helps the soil particles bind together better to prevent clouding of the water and of course the clay gives it an extra iron boost long term. And you need the initial organic load that comes with garden/top soil which is essentially what produces CO2 in a soil tank and is the most important thing to having healthy and growing plants. No type of plain clay will give you that, at least not the first year possibly.
 
"High tech" plants just need the extra CO2 levels and majority of "high tech" plants will grow in a low light conditions if given enough CO2.  But a soil tank can have quite a good amount of CO2 and you'll be surprised how many "high tech" plants will grow just fine. Mine is growing glossostima at the moment. It's not fully carpeted yet but is growing horizontal and healthy. Here is a current picture:
 

 

[Paradise3]

Ah, thank-you for all that Snazy I was just wondering as my tank desperately needs something My famous Cryptocoryne wendtii that has been through all sorts is even starting to die now and I don't want that. I've had that for ages, when I set my divided betta tank up it was in one of the boys sections and I moved it to my 3ft planted tank where it was attacked by all kinds of algae and I still kept it alive but now it's starting to die I'm just worried about this as I can't afford to buy the soil till next week and then I can't set it all up till I get home again

 

[snazy]

They are dying/melting and get algae because you've got no co2 source. Any structural damage is CO2 related, then come the ferts, and last the light.  Putting a clay substrate won't change that. Just reduce your light to minimum possible until you are able to setup the tank.The more light/the more CO2 demand, the more nutritient demand.
On another note, your current substrate would have done just fine as a cap to the soil so you could have delayed purchasing the sand. I am not the one to judge and it depends what you were looking for but I think you could have got sand for cheaper. They are selling sand here for 1.70 euro for 5 killos and 2 bags of that would have covered your tank.
 
Edit: Sand is fine as a cap to soil as long as it's not very fine because that can cause the soil to get anaerobic easily(depleted from oxygen) and also prevents the soil from getting well nurished. Soil tank works best with coarse sand or fine gravel, but not fine sand.

 

[Paradise3]

They are dying/melting and get algae because you've got no co2 source. Any structural damage is CO2 related, then come the ferts, and last the light.  Putting a clay substrate won't change that. Just reduce your light to minimum possible until you are able to setup the tank.The more light/the more CO2 demand, the more nutritient demand.
On another note, your current substrate would have done just fine as a cap to the soil so you could have delayed purchasing the sand. I am not the one to judge and it depends what you were looking for but I think you could have got sand for cheaper. They are selling sand here for 1.70 euro for 5 killos and 2 bags of that would have covered your tank.
 
Edit: Sand is fine as a cap to soil as long as it's not very fine because that can cause the soil to get anaerobic easily(depleted from oxygen) and also prevents the soil from getting well nurished. Soil tank works best with coarse sand or fine gravel, but not fine sand.

 
Ah, over here I asked and the 1.8kg bags are £6-7 each The 12.5kg looks like it's only just going to cover my tank. It's not fine sand as far as I can tell, it's quite a course sand
 
I know my current substrate would have been fine but I'm planning to get some cory's and my gravel was too dense and sharp for them unfortunately.
 
My plants have always been fine without any extra Co2, I don't know why that would suddenly change as nothing else in the tank has changed
 
My lights are on 6 hours a day and I don't have any algae any more.

 

[snazy]

My plants have always been fine without any extra Co2, I don't know why that would suddenly change as nothing else in the tank has changed
 

 
No plants do well without CO2. Something has changed so less of it is produced in your tank.  Any melting, holes in leaves, blackening of plants, falling leaves and subsequently algae is 98% CO2 related. When plants increase the biomass, there's more CO2 demand in the tank, so your tank currently is just not able to sustain those amounts. Also, when buying new plants depending on where you got them from, they are loaded with reserves and may do well for a few weeks to a month, then once that's used they start a sudden decline if the current tank isn't replacing these.

 

[Paradise3]

 

My plants have always been fine without any extra Co2, I don't know why that would suddenly change as nothing else in the tank has changed
 

 
No plants do well without CO2. Something has changed so less of it is produced in your tank.  Any melting, holes in leaves, blackening of plants, falling leaves and subsequently algae is 98% CO2 related. When plants increase the biomass, there's more CO2 demand in the tank, so your tank currently is just not able to sustain those amounts. Also, when buying new plants depending on where you got them from, they are loaded with reserves and may do well for a few weeks to a month, then once that's used they start a sudden decline if the current tank isn't replacing these.
 

 
I've had the Crypt over a year now and never had a problem... It started melting last week before your plants were added... Nothing in the tank has changed

Apart from the added plants the you sent me..
 
Edit: The crypt was bought from someone who didn't inject Co2 into their tank either and just had sand substrate and LED lights...

 

[snazy]

I've had the Crypt over a year now and never had a problem... It started melting last week before your plants were added... Nothing in the tank has changed

Apart from the added plants the you sent me..
 

 
Well adding a higher plant mass means more CO2 demand and your crypt isn't competing well because the CO2 was probably scarce to start with.
Most crypts are very low demanding on CO2 which explains why yours survive. Crypt melt or any melt is always a decline of CO2 levels. It doesn't always mean not enough CO2 for the crypt but decline. Plants have hard time adapting to lower CO2. CO2 is like a drug to them, the more they have the more they want.  Emersed plants for example melt once submersed and regrow because they need to adapt to lower CO2 levels. Sometimes those low CO2 levels are too low to sustain a new growth so they melt completely. It is really as simple as that.

 

[Paradise3]

 

I've had the Crypt over a year now and never had a problem... It started melting last week before your plants were added... Nothing in the tank has changed

Apart from the added plants the you sent me..
 

 
Well adding a higher plant mass means more CO2 demand and your crypt isn't competing well because the CO2 was probably scarce to start with.
Most crypts are very low demanding on CO2 which explains why yours survive. Crypt melt or any melt is always a decline of CO2 levels. It doesn't always mean not enough CO2 for the crypt but decline. Plants have hard time adapting to lower CO2. CO2 is like a drug to them, the more they have the more they want.  Emersed plants for example melt once submersed and regrow because they need to adapt to lower CO2 levels. Sometimes those low CO2 levels are too low to sustain a new growth so they melt completely. It is really as simple as that.
 

 
Yes but it started melting before the new plants were added... I'm not saying it's not lack of Co2, more trying to figure out why it's suddenly changed for no reason...

 

[snazy]

Edit: The crypt was bought from someone who didn't inject Co2 into their tank either and just had sand substrate and LED lights...
 

 
That doesn't mean a thing. Has any of you ever measured the CO2 levels in the tanks(which is kind of impossible)? They could be totally different. Your plants are telling you they aren't getting enough co2, maybe even not getting enough flow/distribution of CO2 if you've changed a filter or the filter position. Honestly, it's not some kind of mystery no one has experienced.