The prisons we keep

[Wills]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Fish are very much aware of their surroundings. My discus will watch me from 5 meters away. Gold fish were taught to "drive" a mobilized aquarium to specific locations within a room.

When I lived in Seattle, there was an octopus at the local sea aquarium that would climb out of its tank at night, crawl across the floor, climb into a another tank, eat one of the fish in that tank, then return to its own tank afterwards. This went on for days, and the keepers at the aquarium couldn't understand why fish kept disappearing. It wasn't until they installed cameras that they discovered what was happening.

I agree fish are conscious to a degree but a lot of the concepts that we judge ethical or not are just beyond their comprehension. I think the longer lives, lack of predation etc definitely weighs into the subject too as those are things fish can probably comprehend - though not even sure they would be able to comprehend age as time is quite an advanced level of thought...

I don't think comparing an Octopus to a Discus is truly accurate though, Octopus are so unique in comparison to anything else on the planet we can't assume if a Cichlid had tentacles they would behave the same. Some people actually wonder if Octopus originated on Earth, but thats a whole other story haha!

Wills

 

[Ichthys]

In the wild, Bettas live in an optimal density of 1.7 fish per square meter, or roughly one fish per half square meter. Contrary to someone who stated they move throughout rice paddies, they never leave the small territory they occupy unless they cannot defend it or there is a lack of sufficient food. That's far greater density than is optimal for discus, or even tetras. It is also worth noting that the Bettas most people are keeping are long-finned and less mobile than wild caught Bettas.

"Evolution, Culture and Care for Betta Splendens, University of Florida publication"

We’ll agree to disagree then. Yes, Bettas have been studied at that density. They’ve also been studied at other densities.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Most living things, including people, tend to adapt to whatever their living conditions are. I remember some years back watching a vid a 100s of corys trapped in a shrinking body of water. During the rainy season they, like many fish, will leave a river and head into flooded areas. Some fish use this opportunity to spawn others to find bountiful food. But when the rainy season ends and the water recedes, not all the fish make it back. So there were these 100s of cories living enmasse in a small and shrinking space. My best guess is none of them survived. But they made the best of a bad situation until they could not.

Now consider humans. Let's assume those of you reading this were to have committed a crime and get sent to prison. This is not a resort you cannot leave, but a place of harsh conditions, poor food, threats of violence and little freedom of choice. What are you going to do, adapt or suffer the consequences of not doing so? Well fish are not so intelligent that they can grasp the idea that they are in a prison. After all what is the "job" of a fish?

Exactly what is i that a fish does with it's life no matter where it may be living? And the answer is most similar to my three thoughts explanation. It needs to eat, it needs not to be eaten and it needs to reproduce. It doesn't not work 9 to 5, it doesn't take vacations and, sometimes, it will even eat its own children.

So when we put such a fish into a tank which has the proper parameters, the proper aquascape, a good diet and a chance to spawn, medicval help when needed, the only thing left to make it a great place to live would be not to have tankmates that would prey on it. Is this really not an ideal world for the fish? Unless one has a very big space, one can never get close to nature. But exactly what is so great about nature for the quality of life for a fish when it is compared to a healthy tank where the only fault is the size of the living space and everything else is actually more ideal than in nature?

Please also understand that I am not talking about putting a big fish into a small tank where it can barely swim or turn around. So some fish need bigger tanks, but the prison argument would not change. Go to a public aquariums. Go look at the huge salt water tank with some really big fish in it. That would still be a prison under the initial definition of this thread. Yet the fish in the aquarium will get better care, food and treatment that they would in the wild.

So, we humans used to live in the wild. Now we live in houses and apartments, in cities and towns. Are we now prisoners? Do you want to live naked in the wild and when you get sick you have no help, when you are hungry you will not be fed etc. etc. And you may be attacked or killed for something you have like a meal? I think not. But we cannot ask our fish which they might prefer, the wild or a proper tank with a responsible fish keeper caring for their welfare.

Before I set up my very first tank and was a complete newbie, I did know one thing for sure. If I was going to keep fish in a captive environment, I was responsible for their quality of life. If I was not willing to make my best efforts to care for them properly, then I had no business having the tank in the first place. I feel this is a responsibility that extends to any animal we might keep whether it is a fish, a dog a bird or an elephant. I am responsible for the quality of life for every fish I have including those born in my tanks. And I know I should not get any fish which I cannot care for properly. This is why I am in the process of rehoming most or all of my fish. I am reaching the point where I can no longer care for them all properly.

Of course, all of the above is my opinion and it guides what I do in keeping fish. I cannot force it on others.

 

[vince82]

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Fish are very much aware of their surroundings. My discus will watch me from 5 meters away. Gold fish were taught to "drive" a mobilized aquarium to specific locations within a room.

When I lived in Seattle, there was an octopus at the local sea aquarium that would climb out of its tank at night, crawl across the floor, climb into a another tank, eat one of the fish in that tank, then return to its own tank afterwards. This went on for days, and the keepers at the aquarium couldn't understand why fish kept disappearing. It wasn't until they installed cameras that they discovered what was happening.

Octopus are not fish. And some species are amongst the smartest animal in existence.
But on the goldfish, don't think they had to drive stick, if you look at the experiment it's probably way less impressive than it sound.
I bet your discus only made the connection "big shade moves, shade food".

 

[plebian]

Now consider humans. Let's assume those of you reading this were to have committed a crime and get sent to prison. This is not a resort you cannot leave, but a place of harsh conditions, poor food, threats of violence and little freedom of choice.

Some people are ignoring the word "gilded" I used to describe our prisons. On another forum I compared the difference among aquariums similar to the difference between being in a prison cell and being under house arrest. That's probable a much better metaphor.

In any case, I like your point about humans. We do in fact live in a kind of gilded prison, and most of us would willingly choose that over life in the wild. We exchange our freedom for comfort and security, a perfectly reasonable exchange. Nowhere did I say that fishkeeping was wrong or immoral. I was merely pointing out that most people don't give it enough thought.

 

[plebian]

I bet your discus only made the connection "big shade moves, shade food".

I don't cast any shade from 5 meters. Seriously, your response is weak not to mention poorly informed and articulated. The point I was making is that animals are much more intelligent than people give them credit for. That we actually know less about animal behavior than everyone assumes.

For example, it has recently been demonstrated that even insects are capable of counting. You need to do more research on animal behavior. Migratory birds are clearly capable of calculating wind speed and direction. Numerous species have been observed not only using tools, but fashioning them from the raw materials at hand. Others have been observed teaching newly learned survival skills to others in their group. If you are going to keep other living species as "pets" I suggest you learn more about them.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Keeping pets of any type seems a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand, to some, it may seem cruel to cage or otherwise confine any critter. Then again, look at how cruel nature can be. Bad weather, predators, poor food supplies. Like my dogs over the years, my fish are well fed and live relatively long and happy lives and since I've bred and raised many fish, would not even otherwise exist, or exist for very long in the wild.
Oh, I'll agree that fish get little respect, at least far less than other critters we call pets. Many are no doubt mistreated with little or no regard and there's no PETA or SPCA to come to the rescue for fish.
But this is like preaching to the choir as I'm pretty sure that the members here do all they can to provide good homes for their fish.

 

[GaryE]

There iis a lot to consider here. I do sometimes think I shouldn't keep fish. We have only just begun to investigate their intelligence, and we don't have great tools to figure it out. It isn't like ours, but ours isn't like theirs. Most people don't believe we're animals, and with that we have a long way to go if we are going to understand our world and our place in it. But that is a bigger debate than we can resolve here.

I have killies - Aphyosemions from small bodies of water. In their lifetimes, they rarely travel. They have a build for short bursts of swimming, and venturing far would get them eaten. I keep pairs in 10 gallon tanks and they have tons of room. The tanks suit their lifestyle. The oldtimers used 2.5 gallon tanks for them, and I don't follow their approach.

Even among killies, the quick swimming, shoaling Platopocheilus lampeyes from the open waters of the same streams should not be in a 10 gallon, and if I can get some, they'll be in one metre/3 foot tanks.

My resolution? I am a predator and I play with my food. Every fish in an aquarium is a zombie in its relationship to its species in nature. They can be wonderfully kept and cared for in fantastic set ups, but they are dead to their breeding populations. You can catch them on a hook, or have someone do it for you, and eat them. Or you can put them in aquariums. Either way, they are removed from their world. One is not better than the other, and not worse.

If we never watch them and learn about them, we wallow in our usual ignorance of nature. I don't know how much value our individual learning has, but if we share what we've learned from tanks, well maybe a percentage of people will see more reasons to protect habitat. There have been rare incidents of us decimating wild populations for the trade - boesemani rainbows, cherry barbs, etc, but we generally kill other species with wooden products, soy farming, beef production, petroleum and palm oil.

We have an urge to keep other animals in captivity - dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, fish and many more. I have friends with spider rooms. We are weird beasts. But if we are going to do this, and we are, we should keep the updated research into animal and fish intelligence and habitats in mind, question our old attitudes and try to do it right. That's why we bother with forums like this - to learn how to do our best.

 

[Endlersendlers]

I don't cast any shade from 5 meters. Seriously, your response is weak not to mention poorly informed and articulated. The point I was making is that animals are much more intelligent than people give them credit for. That we actually know less about animal behavior than everyone assumes.

For example, it has recently been demonstrated that even insects are capable of counting. You need to do more research on animal behavior. Migratory birds are clearly capable of calculating wind speed and direction. Numerous species have been observed not only using tools, but fashioning them from the raw materials at hand. Others have been observed teaching newly learned survival skills to others in their group. If you are going to keep other living species as "pets" I suggest you learn more about them.

I’ve heard of ibis (a tropical white bird) teaching others of the same species how to eat a poisonous Bufo (aka cane) toad by flipping it over and avoiding the poison sacs.