The Concerns I Have With This Forum....

[t1tanrush]

I would like to go over several things I have noticed on this forum as being a problem..

1. People who post links to ebay/youtube or tell about how they encountered an overstocked, dirty, or overall " bad " tank..
Reasons:
a) We don't know much about the background of the keeper, their fish, or any other circumstances, we judge people far too quick.
B) For me it seems more like an "ego trip" more than anything. Something that says " ha look at us we know how to keep fish they are just stupid and don't know anything aren't we great ! ". That really isn't the attitude we should be having.
c) They serve no general purpose. People read it and are just sad and upset at the fish, instead of doing anything they just act upset and put out.

2. When a topic is brought up " I need advice ". 2 types of advice are given, the OP has to chose 1 of the 2 bits of advice, most likely whichever seems the most logical to them. If this isn't the advice that the majority supports then issues insue such as:
a) "The OP only accepted what they wanted to hear.... " Which is very untrue, they chose what seemed like the best choice for their cirumstance.
B) The advice giver is flamed and told they are wrong and if they do that they are not taking care of their fish properly.
c) The OP is flamed and taunted about how awful their choice was, until they either change and are accepted, or end up leaving to escape the posting from certain individuals.

3. When someone "overstocks" a tank and are told " remove this, this, and this or you will have huge problems later on.
Reasons:
a) While the general rules are indeed great rules for a beginer fish keeper, people want to take them and apply them in near every single case and claim overstocking.
B) Stocking is objective, having a set number of fish and going above that "normal limit" is very frowned upon, many people flame these users claiming they don't care for their fish, just because there are some extra tank mates here and there, which could very well in there case be causing no problems.

4. When someone doesn't use normal combos of keeping fish. IE a large majority of tanks are what I call " cookie cutter ". They all have about the same thing, follow the basic fish rules and have nearly the same stocking. IE stocking for a 10g as 6 tetras of some form and 4 corys. If someone stocks in a way that is a bit odd they are told it will not work and are flamed for it.
Problems with this:
a) Each and every fish is unique, I was told corys must be kept in groups of 4 or larger, I had 2 corys do very well together for a long time, and they spent a large ammount of time away from each other.
B) Because fish are unique they will act differently towards one another. Just because one person had problems keeping 2 fish together doesn't mean everyone will have that same problem. I kept convicts with female bettas for a good while and up until recently (lack of food with being busy, my fault) they weren't harassed much by the convicts at all, despitre people saying this would never work.

I really dislike the overall view that is expressed in this forum of " if you don't do it our way, your wrong and a bad fish keeper. " It really discourages new members from joining or remaining active. Its almost like this forum is a highschool clique and in order to be in it you have to meet certain requirements.
I think if these issues where addressed then this forum would be even bigger and have even more new membres seeking advice and information.

 

[jollysue]

I somewhat agree with you. Nevertheless I know several mods and members that don't behave the way you describe and would give a little "heads up!" to anyone behaving like that in the forums they frequent. I know that Inchworm, Tolak, Wuv, Ferris, LL, among many, are very gentle with new members and make efforts to cool some heads and heels.

Your Cory example is lacking--unless you have kept large groups of same species Corys, you do not have adequate information to compare. The Betta example also proves the rule. But the more mature members won't flame you for trying something. I know that I have learned many things by experience.

For myself, I will suggest and offer what I have experienced to be true. If the OP wants to continue with an edgier stocking, I let it go and may even help to make it work.

I do by the way over stock! It makes for lots of work!

Many times since I have been a member I have gone ahead against the advice of more experienced fish keepers. The outcome has usually been as predicted to my sorrow.

There are some boards where the members are more confrontive and some that are more emotional. I do avoid some areas, because I don't fit comfortably and don't need the drama. But if it was important to me to be part of theat board I know that I would be supported in an effort to make a spot for myself.

Often if you check the profile of the flamer or the one jumping on an OP, you will begin to understand the dynamics going on. I'm not hot on the "Isn't it awful!" threads either, so I don't join in. I let the children play as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

 

[Bignose]

RE: 1. You just have to ignore the threads. The less "views" such a thread and especially the less replies such a thread has and they will go away on their own.

RE: 2. If you see flaming, report it to the mods. The mods will do whatever is needed to reign the thread back in, including appropriate discipline for the flaming members. The best way to solve these disputes is to bring evidence to the table. This is why I am such a big advocate of the Scientific Section here, you can't just post your feelings or what you think is best there, you have to bring the reasons why.

RE 3&4. I fully concede that the "rules" are generalities, but behind them there is a kernel of truth. In general, overstocked tanks are a recipe for disaster down the road. Most people will not do the extra maintenance and the extra observation and all the extras that are required to keep an overstocked tank healthy. And while I am happy that you could keep convicts and bettas together, you do understand that this combination probably only works 1 in a 1000 or 10000 or more? Same thing about your 2 corys, I am glad it worked out for you, but in general corys will be happier and healthier in groups as large as possible.

This actually comes back an issue I brought up in RE: 2, and that is evidence. The general evidence about convicts and bettas is that they don't work and the general evidence is that corys in groups are better. Your examples are anecdote, and as such do not carry a lot of water. If you had this set up 100 times, then you've got something, but 1 example does not a rule make. And, in general, a convict with a betta is a poor idea. How many bettas are you going to sacrifice until you find that one with the personality that will get along with the convict? Or how many convicts do you bring back to the shop until you find the one that won't kill bettas?

The collected evidence of thousands of fishkeepers is what is weighing against you here.

So, again, I am glad that your situations worked out for you, but most people that follow your example are going to end up with a very bad situation.

Now, if your main point here is that people need to express this better, then I can agree with that. Firstly, however, you really shouldn't infer tone -- because it is very, very difficult to get tone just from the written word. For example, did I just write that sentence in a very mean or angry way? Or, as I really meant, in a calm explanatory way? And secondly, again, people should cite evidence and refrain from name calling. The evidence against convicts and bettas come just from their natures, for instance. Convicts are fast, aggressive fish and bettas are slow moving, and if you keep the very common males with the long tails, they are easy, enticing targets. In general, the convict is going to bully the betta a great deal, most likely resulting in death for the betta. People should write that out, rather than name calling or just saying "It won't work!" People should write out the reasons the rules are there in the first place, not just repeat them like some sort of gospel. And, the real benefit to writing out why the rules are there in the first place is that if you learn the reasons behind the rules, you can learn when it might be possible to bend or break the rules. But, just because people don't write out the reasons, doesn't mean that you should just rebel against them, either. You need good reasons to go against the common knowledge, because, frankly, there is a reason it has become common knowledge in the first place. There are a few examples where common knowledge is wrong -- one of the best examples I can think of immediately is the dormant ich myth -- but by-and-large common knowledge is pretty accurate. It is common knowledge because it works.

 

[Darkstar]

As quoted from another post of the o/p's.

I guess if you where to do this in real life if you started laughing at me in a verbal argument I would frankly knock you out

Seems perhaps you should spend your time reflecting on your own posts and actions before judging anyone elses.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I agree with Bignose in particular a lot .

Not everyone has the time to write out and explain thoroughly the reasons why it is not a good idea to mix and so-and-so fish with so-and-so fish, however whenever you do have the time to thoroughly explain the logical reasoning behind such things, i think you should.
There are few rules or facts that you can apply to all fish, even finding rules/facts which apply to certain fish families or even species can be difficult. The fact of the matter is that fish are very complex animals, and to really stock your tank well you really do have to do your own motivated thorough research on each individual type of fish. Logical facts and scientific knowledge and experience are all as important as each other, and work best when many people put such things together in an effort to learn more about their fish.



With the ebay thing, it doesn't particularly concern me. In actual reality, such ebay threads could be good sometimes, as it might encourage people on the forum to actually go and save such fish by buying them from the seller. Most people who sell such aweful ebay fish tanks are quitting the hobby anyway, which is why they are selling their fish and tank/s.


I think sometimes we try too hard to make this forum too politically and socially correct and all of that, with people being forced to accept everybody elses opinions but at the same time being encourage to express their own and be honest and again at the same time being told that they can't say this and they shouldn't say that etc etc- the system is going crazy with all of this "correctness".
Chill out people- i think the forum works well the way it is. I do agree that perhaps sometimes people need to be more open-minded and accepting, but ultimately you can't change everyone and make them conform to your expectations of them, everyone is individual and i think considering how many tens of thousands of people we have on this forum, from a variety of cultures, age groups, walks of life etc, this forum works very well for what it is and IMHO doesn't really need changing in any great sense .

 

[Teelie]

I find it annoying when people will "answer" a question but not bother to even read the question in whole and instead cherry-pick their reply ignoring other factors that would alter the answer had they read the entire post.

Not so much agreeing/disagreeing with the OP here but adding to the list. If you're going to answer someone's question, at least read and take into account everything they're asking/telling you.

 

[K.J.]

1. I have to agree with this. I'm beginning to get sick of all these 'look at this fishtank!" thread, or "help save the bettas!" thread. It's been seen, it's been tried. And people don't understand they can't change the world. Seems like it's just a melting pot for arguments to me, what useful purpose does it serve? In this particular case, I think I have to agree with 'ignorance is bliss.' But at the same time, we can't really do anything about the thread. I have to agree with you about how our members can sometimes be a little hardcore. I know several people, of the betta section in particular, who are VERY serious. I myself am serious, but I don't jump on people and say everybody will condemn you for life if you don't do that, etc. Like Bignose said, ignore them. That's all you can do.

2. I, unfortunately, agree with this. We all need a chill pill, people. You should report it to the mods and just step away from the thread until it gets locked. Much as you'd like to put in your input, it's better to just take a deep breath, find something else to look at (no ebay threads!!!) and ignore it. In fact, that's what everybody should do. Let people figure it out their own way. Offer advice such as "well, it's worked for most people like this, but it might work if you did it like that. Make sure you have a backup blah blah blah though." That way, you don't have to sound confrontational because you said it only works one way. Unless, scientifically, and for the sake of the animal, it has been PROVEN not to work.... Such as, let's say, a piranha and a neon tetra.

3. Yes, I think too many people are told about basics that take them as rules, not ideas. The inch per gallon, for example. It's perfectly acceptable to overstock, moderately, with the right filter. Lots of people here do it. Also, not all fish produce the same amount of waste. A 2-inch pleco, or platy would certainly make more than a tetra of the same size. Also, that doesn't mean you can put them in a two gallon tank. Honestly, I don't even listen to the inch per gallon anymore, but it can be a good way for beginners to learn what lines you can cross and which you can't.

4. The "cookie cutter" isn't so much an example of us, so much as a newbie not wanting to risk something else. Also, although this isn't in the scientific section I consider it somewhat of a debate, of sorts, and in the scientific section it says;

Avoid phrases like "there is evidence all around you"; "in my experience"; "everyone knows that....."I've had 20 fish like that and this is what happens everytime."

Although, I suppose us saying "this won't do" is the same, but the thing is, what we say is usually right (no high horse intended!) but I do think we need a lesson on how to calmly argue, without flaming.

But in the end, like Bignose, I think are forum functions well enough and I wouldn't want to lose some of our more valued members by trying to change it.

 

[t1tanrush]

As quoted from another post of the o/p's.

I guess if you where to do this in real life if you started laughing at me in a verbal argument I would frankly knock you out

Seems perhaps you should spend your time reflecting on your own posts and actions before judging anyone elses.

Lol, Read the sub topic please. Reported.

 

[starrynightxxi]

the reason behind the cookie cutter tanks - unless i'm taking your meaning the wrong way - is that in general, people who are new to fish keeping make mistakes and its best for them to make those mistakes with fish that are tried and true. Danios, cories, and tetras* are hardy, forgiving animals that will often survive those early mistakes and then thrive later on as the person begins to get the hang of fish keeping.

You won't learn to ride appropriately by jumping on the first unbroke horse you see in the field - thoguh you may eventually learn how not to fall on your head - and you won't learn to appropriately keep fish by running out and purchasing elephant noses and eels and puffers without research and experience.



*also, because these fish are common, they can be gotten from any pet store easily, rather than more rare - if just as hardy - fish whose price tag might be intimidating to newcomers.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

As quoted from another post of the o/p's.

I guess if you where to do this in real life if you started laughing at me in a verbal argument I would frankly knock you out

Seems perhaps you should spend your time reflecting on your own posts and actions before judging anyone elses.

Lol, Read the sub topic please. Reported.

that's not flaming. that's just stating facts.

flaming means to insult someone directly such as through name-calling (stupid, twit, blind idiot, etc.) or to make other irrational, non-fact-based attacks on a person ("you hate fish", "you couldn't find your bum with two hands and a candle", etc).

people are allowed to disagree with you and they are allowed to quote your words back at you, even if it's embarrassing or undermines your arguments. they are especially allowed to do so if they are polite about it.

 

[rdd1952]

1) I agree with Bignose. Ignoring those threads is the best idea. The always lead to heated discussions just as the one recently closed did. And although you are posting this, you were in the thick of the fight. And there is a definite difference between a heated discussion where everyone is trying hard to make their point either with facts or personal experience (naturally, facts hold much more water) and flaming where people are calling each other names and the original intent and argument is out the window. Once the original topic is lost and the posts turn to knocking someone out or how experienced someone is at fighting, nothing good can come from the thread and the reputation and credibility of those involved is greatly reduced at least in my eyes.

2) I don't see a lot of flaming. I see arguments. But most often, I see people trying hard to make a point that a certain way won't work or has a high probability of failure so that newbies don't get in over their heads to quickly and become enamored with the hobby before they ever get started good. While I may argue a point to try to get it across to a newbie, I have certainly never called anyone an idiot (of any other form of flaming) for the way they chose to keep their fish. If they are bent on heading down the road to disaster, then I simply walk away and feel for their fish.

Also, on point "a", I have to disagree and say that I think in most cases they are looking for what they want to hear as it means that the path they have taken is right. Most people don't want to admit when they've made a mistake or are wrong (I would be one of them) and seeing that one comment or bit of advice that gives their way justification is what they are looking for, even if 3 or 4 other people contradict it.

3) The reason most people are told their tanks are overstocked is because as a general rule they are all newbies or they are perceived to be newbies since they are new to the forum and don't preface their post with something like "I've been keeping fish for X years". They are either asking if a particular stocking scenario will work or are asking for help solving a problem that is quite often a result of overstocking (high ammonia or nitrite for example). I don't think anyone on here would ever tell one of our experienced fish keepers that their tanks were overstocked since they have the experience and maintenance schedule to handle their stocking level. In cases where people ask about a stocking scenario that is heavy, I generally say that it is overstocked by the 1" per gallon "guide" (not rule) but with a proper maintenance schedule and filtration, it can or could work. The main goal of most everyone here is to help newbies ease into the hobby as smoothly as possible with the least amount of problems and getting them to follow the old tried and true guides and rules is the simplest way to do that. As a simple example, if a newbie does a fishless cycle, stocks properly with compatible tank mates, and does proper maintenance, the chances of them having major problems is greatly reduced and more likely to arise from getting diseased fish from the LFS than from anything they did to get set up.

4) As already mentioned by others, the "school rule" for most community fish are based on years of experience. Can you keep a single cory in a properly maintained tank and him live a fill life? Of course you can. Will he be more at ease with other corys? Absolutely. Fish of this type prefer groups because it is a defense mechanism for them, safety in numbers. If you notice a new tank, when you first add the school of 6 or 8 neons, they will stay pretty well together for several days or even weeks until they realize there isn't a predator present and that they are safe to do as they please. From then on, they are rarely together and seem to pretty much go their own ways. As for the compatibility issue, if you search the threads on here, I'm sure you will find all sorts of unacceptable tank mates that people say are doing fine. What you won't ever see is where they came back a week, month, year later and said that one fish suddenly turned on the other fish and killed them all. They can live together for months but it only takes one day or night and a sudden change and the tank is a mess. Even in your post, you said that the bettas "weren't harassed much by the convicts". Any harassment means that it is only a matter of time before the harassment turns deadly.

I do agree that we all need to sometimes think before we write, walk away from the fight and sometimes be more open minded to unconventional methods (think how well fishless cycling must have been received when first introduced). As Bignose mentioned, tone is almost impossible to pick up in the written word. I have gone back through some of my posts in the past to proof read for spelling and realized that what I was saying might be taken wrong because of the way it was written. If I catch it, I always change it or at least add a statement to clarify. And all of the points above are meant strictly as my opinion and input to the thread, not as a personal barb at the OP.

 

[OohFeeshy]

However, you also have to realise that other forums work the same way. Those that don't end up with even more problems- I'm a mod on another forum, and if I hadn't pointed out (after half a dozen other posters ignored this) that the reason the goldfish in someone's 30l tank were at the bottom of the tank all the time was, in some way or another, due to the fact that the tank was far too small for goldfish full stop, they would have been quite happy to wander off back into the real world with no inkling that there might be a problem.

 

[backtotropical]

I agree with much of what you say here T1tanrush, however i cant help thinking that you resent these things so much because you are often victim to them, because of your style of fishkeeping. I think 99% of people on here only try to help and educate others as best they can.

Agreed though, there is too much flaming.

 

[andywg]

Agreed though, there is too much flaming.

What? Too much? Some people need to get out into the internet at large and experience other fora. Then they can come back here and realise just how clear of flaming this forum is.

 

[Fella]

Agree with Andy. I moderate on another forum, and there is a ton more flaming there than on here.