Tail Biting Update
- Thread starter ellena
- Start date
Haych
Fish Gatherer
I have to ask - what litre is the tank with what size heater?
I ask as my sister's tank is a fluval edge with a 25w heater, and he has to have it on max as it isnt warm enough
could this be your issue?
I ask as my sister's tank is a fluval edge with a 25w heater, and he has to have it on max as it isnt warm enough
could this be your issue?
may sound silly, but you certain its not finrot?
cheers
cheers
I meant swap the heaters not the fish, since you said you were going to try swapping the heaters, I was just saying its a good idea. I know you already swapped the fish. And I know you're trying to warm up the bottom, I just meant that if you cooled off the top the thermostat on the heater might warm up the bottom because it wouldn't shut off before the bottom was warm enough. Just thought it was worth trying since I know you've tried other things. I know my suggestions were kind of goofy I was just telling you everything I would try to get a better diagnosis of what the problem is. Well, hope you figure it out.
Apologies mauricia, I read that totally the wrong way 
The tank is an aqua 40, about 25l, and the heater a 100w. I had a 25w at first, but upgraded.
Def not finrot loraxchick, huge chunks disappear overnight.
The tank is an aqua 40, about 25l, and the heater a 100w. I had a 25w at first, but upgraded.
Def not finrot loraxchick, huge chunks disappear overnight.
not saying you are wrong, but with finrot, huge chunks CAN disappear overnight. just something to think about. any new growth anywhere on his fins between bouts of the chunks going missing?Apologies mauricia, I read that totally the wrong way
The tank is an aqua 40, about 25l, and the heater a 100w. I had a 25w at first, but upgraded.
Def not finrot loraxchick, huge chunks disappear overnight.
as for the temp difference, it is not completely unusual for a tank to have a mild temperature gradient. if the heater problem cant be solved, you may need a different filter to help distribute things a bit more evenly. another option to consider. a 100wt heater should be MORE than enough to properly heat the tank. start thinking about how to distribute it more. keeping flow reduced it can be a pain indeed but is necessary for the betta.
cheers
No worries... I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was stupid and was telling you to move your poor stressed bettas again. 
If I remember correctly you tried putting the filter right next to the heater, but did you try moving it to random places like the opposite end? Is your filter intake close to the bottom or is it toward the top? All my tanks have no big temp gradient, but all my filters have an intake right at the bottom and pour water at the top. Or what about an air curtain?
Besides the heating gradient problem, have you tried putting tanins in the water? One of my fish stopped biting his tail after I used IAL and driftwood to have the water be muddy brown looking. And yeah it is possible for large chunks to go missing from fin rot because the rot weakens the fins so it can break off in chunks. It could also be possible that he is biting because of fin rot because he's uncomfortable. Even if your water is clean bacterial fin rot is possible. What's your pH? And have you tried keeping him in the dark, this can really help easily stressed bettas. Is there any other environmental factor that could irritate him? Smoke, loud music? Does your floor vibrate at all when you walk on it? I was in my friends house and noticed how much the tank water shook when people walked by. Do the lights in the room he's in get turned on and off? Is he on a regular feeding schedule and light schedule? Because honestly with a temperature gradient it could be a factor but I think he would pretty quickly figure out that the bottom was colder and if it bothered him a lot he would just not go down there. Assuming he has leaves near the surface to rest on. In my experience tail biters seem to stress about things out of their control. While trying to figure out the heater problem it would be worth racking your brain for anything that would stress him. Does the biting happen every day? If not try to pay attention to whether it correlates with water changes at all. I know on this forum people say nitrates up to 20-40 is ok but I found if I let nitrates get above 10 my HMs will get rot. Or if he bites right after a change more you could see if smaller more frequent changes improved it. I really agree with loraxchick though, it could be fin rot. If chunks disappear and then there's no more disappearing for a few days and there is regrowth it's probably biting, but if it's constantly disappearing in large chunks it could go either way. Even with clean water its possible to get stubborn fin rot.
If I remember correctly you tried putting the filter right next to the heater, but did you try moving it to random places like the opposite end? Is your filter intake close to the bottom or is it toward the top? All my tanks have no big temp gradient, but all my filters have an intake right at the bottom and pour water at the top. Or what about an air curtain?
Besides the heating gradient problem, have you tried putting tanins in the water? One of my fish stopped biting his tail after I used IAL and driftwood to have the water be muddy brown looking. And yeah it is possible for large chunks to go missing from fin rot because the rot weakens the fins so it can break off in chunks. It could also be possible that he is biting because of fin rot because he's uncomfortable. Even if your water is clean bacterial fin rot is possible. What's your pH? And have you tried keeping him in the dark, this can really help easily stressed bettas. Is there any other environmental factor that could irritate him? Smoke, loud music? Does your floor vibrate at all when you walk on it? I was in my friends house and noticed how much the tank water shook when people walked by. Do the lights in the room he's in get turned on and off? Is he on a regular feeding schedule and light schedule? Because honestly with a temperature gradient it could be a factor but I think he would pretty quickly figure out that the bottom was colder and if it bothered him a lot he would just not go down there. Assuming he has leaves near the surface to rest on. In my experience tail biters seem to stress about things out of their control. While trying to figure out the heater problem it would be worth racking your brain for anything that would stress him. Does the biting happen every day? If not try to pay attention to whether it correlates with water changes at all. I know on this forum people say nitrates up to 20-40 is ok but I found if I let nitrates get above 10 my HMs will get rot. Or if he bites right after a change more you could see if smaller more frequent changes improved it. I really agree with loraxchick though, it could be fin rot. If chunks disappear and then there's no more disappearing for a few days and there is regrowth it's probably biting, but if it's constantly disappearing in large chunks it could go either way. Even with clean water its possible to get stubborn fin rot.
theshadowinc
Fishaholic
not saying you are wrong, but with finrot, huge chunks CAN disappear overnight. just something to think about. any new growth anywhere on his fins between bouts of the chunks going missing?Apologies mauricia, I read that totally the wrong way
The tank is an aqua 40, about 25l, and the heater a 100w. I had a 25w at first, but upgraded.
Def not finrot loraxchick, huge chunks disappear overnight.
as for the temp difference, it is not completely unusual for a tank to have a mild temperature gradient. if the heater problem cant be solved, you may need a different filter to help distribute things a bit more evenly. another option to consider. a 100wt heater should be MORE than enough to properly heat the tank. start thinking about how to distribute it more. keeping flow reduced it can be a pain indeed but is necessary for the betta.
cheers
What colour is the fringe of the tail?(Where you would count your cadual rays) Most cases its usually white some think is actually regrowth, and some cases it can be black, both are signs of finrot and can come from many things and in a hurry as well, black usually caused by water quality or a seperate parasite all together, or the white being first signs of the finrot stage(Caused by what finrot descriptions say). Like Lora said I agree, chunks go missing overnight and in a hurry, sometimes I have seen with my own eyes tails get completly wiped out overnight, finrot is a pretty hard thing to deal with even when successfully treated the tail might not heal back and start the cycle over again or it heals and a week later same thing occurs the fin rots and falls off thinking that it was new regrowth and that he is a tail biter. I mentioned before on what might be the issues leading to tail biting and posted the link here for you awhile back, although seems you have done everything on the list *cough* you still havn't done everything that the list stated, I am thinking that this isn't tail bitting that is happening but yet a simple case of finrot. I would be more inclined to think in this direction than tail bitting. I would look towards Lora's eye on what she see's although we are good friends and talk ALOT on the forum together I can definitly say she understands very well what she is talking about, she is alot more than just a hobbyist ....... atleast in my mind and probably in others minds aswell. The hard part if figuring out who to listen to when a issue like this arises, what I say to that is look for the experienced, they are usually very easy to pinpoint for the certain words they might use that are not copied and pasted from a website
My thaughts is that this is 2-0 on the finrot vs tailbitting, atleast another area to be looking at in my opionion, have you even thaught this at one point or another or even treated for it as a just incase procaution?
thanks for the plug shadow
there is a difference between regrowth. being called "white" (it is actually more clear/opaque)finrot usually is accompanied by fungus which can make the tips look white, but the texture is not smooth as a regrowing fin. it is imprortant to know the difference.
i honestly would suspect finrot. 2 bettas. same tank at some point. same mysterious tailbiting.
i have JUST had my first case of finrot on any of my bettas in the 2 years ive kept them. stess of medication brought it on (long explanation into his recent treatments-story for another thread, which shadow can attest to. literally overnight a very large piece of his dorsal fin just fell away. the membrane of his fins began getting a bit thin, noticed it but didnt think much of it. within days, a large chunk missing. he is too compromised at the moment due to swimbladder disorder so i know he didnt do it to himself (altough he could reach it to do so if he were able). and his rays were not damaged as badly-also appearing as a chunk missing, like he were able to bite it (but this guy no WAY could he do that at the moment). i am certain that the stress of 2X daily baths for treatment in epsom salt (which helped a LOT) and gram-antibiotic caused a lot of stress and he got finrot. baths have been over fo three days and his fins have stopped receding. so really ther eis some stress in that particular tank (i cant say heater/decor/reflection etc) but it is lowering his immune system which makes him susceptible to finrot. microbes that can cause finrot are present in nearly every tank. healthy fish can fight it off. stress is a BIG factor in fish health. so my best guess is finrot and NOT tailbiting. check the remaining fins for signs of thin membranes between the rays of his fins and pin holes in the fins.
i could be wrong but just wanted to give some info. just so very unlikely that 2 bettas would start biting from that tank. the guy you moved out coud still have finrot, so seems to heal and then looks as if hes been biting it again.
in the very first post of your thread you mentioned something about treating him for fuzz or a white patch on him, right? sounds like my guy and his recent finrot. the meds were harsh i guess. hes doing better tho ow that im not giving meds.
just some thoughts.
i really hope you get it sorted. will drive you mad!
cheers
there is a difference between regrowth. being called "white" (it is actually more clear/opaque)finrot usually is accompanied by fungus which can make the tips look white, but the texture is not smooth as a regrowing fin. it is imprortant to know the difference.
i honestly would suspect finrot. 2 bettas. same tank at some point. same mysterious tailbiting.
i have JUST had my first case of finrot on any of my bettas in the 2 years ive kept them. stess of medication brought it on (long explanation into his recent treatments-story for another thread, which shadow can attest to. literally overnight a very large piece of his dorsal fin just fell away. the membrane of his fins began getting a bit thin, noticed it but didnt think much of it. within days, a large chunk missing. he is too compromised at the moment due to swimbladder disorder so i know he didnt do it to himself (altough he could reach it to do so if he were able). and his rays were not damaged as badly-also appearing as a chunk missing, like he were able to bite it (but this guy no WAY could he do that at the moment). i am certain that the stress of 2X daily baths for treatment in epsom salt (which helped a LOT) and gram-antibiotic caused a lot of stress and he got finrot. baths have been over fo three days and his fins have stopped receding. so really ther eis some stress in that particular tank (i cant say heater/decor/reflection etc) but it is lowering his immune system which makes him susceptible to finrot. microbes that can cause finrot are present in nearly every tank. healthy fish can fight it off. stress is a BIG factor in fish health. so my best guess is finrot and NOT tailbiting. check the remaining fins for signs of thin membranes between the rays of his fins and pin holes in the fins.
i could be wrong but just wanted to give some info. just so very unlikely that 2 bettas would start biting from that tank. the guy you moved out coud still have finrot, so seems to heal and then looks as if hes been biting it again.
in the very first post of your thread you mentioned something about treating him for fuzz or a white patch on him, right? sounds like my guy and his recent finrot. the meds were harsh i guess. hes doing better tho ow that im not giving meds.
just some thoughts.
i really hope you get it sorted. will drive you mad!
cheers
Thanks for the indepth replies guys
I'll try and get some pictures for you later on. I have actually seen Lotus bite his tail. It gets that look where the rays are in tact but the rest is just shredded. There's never been any sign of any blackness on the edges. It would show up really easily on the white. Peacock is now down to the yellow area of his tail but again, no sign of black.
I have treated the patch on his back with myxazin which would be the right thing to treat the finrot too wouldn't it? He's had 2 courses of that but his back looks that same.
I have another tank exactly the same apart from different lights and a different filter. There's no temp. problem in there, but the filter makes a right racket. The problem is, this tank is right next to my bed so the filter needs to be silent. I can't go out and try every filter out there until I get a quiet one that will keep the temp OK.
The arrangement was heater diagonally across the back with filter intake above the hot end. Now the heater is the other way.
Peacock, who is in that tank atm, actually spends a lot of time at the bottom in the cold area. There are plants enough to rest on nearer the top.
An air curtain is going to be a noise factor again.
It's very difficult to keep a track of whether it's better/worse one day to the next, especially with 2 of them at it. There was def. some regrowth with Lotus though and I thought the tank swap had sorted him, then it was all off again a few days later.
If it is finrot, what to do? As I said, one tank has had 2 courses of myxazin already.
I'll try and get some pictures for you later on. I have actually seen Lotus bite his tail. It gets that look where the rays are in tact but the rest is just shredded. There's never been any sign of any blackness on the edges. It would show up really easily on the white. Peacock is now down to the yellow area of his tail but again, no sign of black.
I have treated the patch on his back with myxazin which would be the right thing to treat the finrot too wouldn't it? He's had 2 courses of that but his back looks that same.
I have another tank exactly the same apart from different lights and a different filter. There's no temp. problem in there, but the filter makes a right racket. The problem is, this tank is right next to my bed so the filter needs to be silent. I can't go out and try every filter out there until I get a quiet one that will keep the temp OK.
The arrangement was heater diagonally across the back with filter intake above the hot end. Now the heater is the other way.
Peacock, who is in that tank atm, actually spends a lot of time at the bottom in the cold area. There are plants enough to rest on nearer the top.
An air curtain is going to be a noise factor again.
It's very difficult to keep a track of whether it's better/worse one day to the next, especially with 2 of them at it. There was def. some regrowth with Lotus though and I thought the tank swap had sorted him, then it was all off again a few days later.
If it is finrot, what to do? As I said, one tank has had 2 courses of myxazin already.
again, not saying it is not simply tailbiting, but need to watch out for finrot. and finrot does not always present itself with black margins (or even white). in some cases, the membranes between the rays just get thinner, more transparent and fall away, leaving the rays mostly in tact. what is the active ingredient in that medicine (i dont know which meds contain what, only what to look for).
the problem with treating bacterial things is that, basically, there are 2 types of bacteria-called gram negative or gram positive (has to do with the cellular structure of the bacteria). all antibiotics dont treat for both. so say you treat with something for gram-, and what the fish has is actually gram +...the med wont be very effective. there are meds that treat for both types (called broad spectrum). they are much more broad in what they will treat. there is not way to "tell" which type of bacteria you are treating for unless you get a sample and do a special stain and look under a microscope. so if it is in fact fintrot, the med you are using might not be the right "type" for that specific strain of bacteria (also-there is antibiotic resistance to consider).
good news is, a healthy fish, who is not stressed out can normally fight it off all by themselves (ie their immune system is in top notch form). stress plays a very big role on fish's immune response. so limiting stress is important. in this case, it *could* be from the uneven temp. or the tank has too much open space, or the tankmates (if any) are bothersome-just so many factors.
the best thing you can do in either circumstance, whether biting or finrot, is to keep clean water. a very small amount of aquarium salt may help (if you do this, dont redose the entire volume after a waterchange-only however much water you are replacing.
the above may or may not be helpful to you, but hopefully will give others a good idea,perhaps, of why their treatments are not working for this or that.
medicating in and of itself can also be very stressful to the fish, especially prolonged medication. can bring up secondary things that take the opportunity to infect a "sick" or weakened fish.
hope you get it all sorted. things like this can drive you crazy!
all the best
cheers
the problem with treating bacterial things is that, basically, there are 2 types of bacteria-called gram negative or gram positive (has to do with the cellular structure of the bacteria). all antibiotics dont treat for both. so say you treat with something for gram-, and what the fish has is actually gram +...the med wont be very effective. there are meds that treat for both types (called broad spectrum). they are much more broad in what they will treat. there is not way to "tell" which type of bacteria you are treating for unless you get a sample and do a special stain and look under a microscope. so if it is in fact fintrot, the med you are using might not be the right "type" for that specific strain of bacteria (also-there is antibiotic resistance to consider).
good news is, a healthy fish, who is not stressed out can normally fight it off all by themselves (ie their immune system is in top notch form). stress plays a very big role on fish's immune response. so limiting stress is important. in this case, it *could* be from the uneven temp. or the tank has too much open space, or the tankmates (if any) are bothersome-just so many factors.
the best thing you can do in either circumstance, whether biting or finrot, is to keep clean water. a very small amount of aquarium salt may help (if you do this, dont redose the entire volume after a waterchange-only however much water you are replacing.
the above may or may not be helpful to you, but hopefully will give others a good idea,perhaps, of why their treatments are not working for this or that.
medicating in and of itself can also be very stressful to the fish, especially prolonged medication. can bring up secondary things that take the opportunity to infect a "sick" or weakened fish.
hope you get it all sorted. things like this can drive you crazy!
all the best
cheers
right,Thanks, loraxchick
so malachite green is really only useful for fungal things. may have been sold under a finrot med as fungi can cause finrot
and i assume you are in UK and cant readily get antibiotics, even "mild" ones.this med can be a bit harsh so make sure to follow package directions. higher temps and pH can make the toxicity worse. basically "stressing" the fish. best to give them at least a week break from redosing. or consider a bath or dip next time around (basically, give 2X the dosage for a short period of time, not in the main tank). if you should chose togo this route in the future and need some guidance, dont hesitate to ask
best advice, no more meds for a while, keep water clean, and a tiny pinch of aquarium/kosher (non-iodized=no iodine) salt to the water, if no salt-sensitive tankmates are in the tank. and if you think they are stressed by whatever conditions are in the tank, and you cant rectify it maybe just leaving the lights off for a few days wouldnt hurt.
all the best!!
cheers
I had read somewhere that fish fungal diseases are quite rare and are generally bacterial that look fluffy?
Either way, yes I am in UK, so I think myxazin is the best I can get? I underdosed it as I was afraid it might knock out the filter bacteria. I've used it like that before and the filter has been OK (confirmed with ammonia tests)
There is nothing else in the tank, apart from plants which might not be great with a blackout.
I have swapped heaters and it's a bit warmer at the bottom, more like 23c which is a bit better.
Peacock is now quite bloated. I fed him some pea as usual on sat, then nothing yesterday or today as he's still so fat! His tail and the back half of his anal fin are in tatters, Lotus seems to have stopped for the moment. [fingers crossed]
Either way, yes I am in UK, so I think myxazin is the best I can get? I underdosed it as I was afraid it might knock out the filter bacteria. I've used it like that before and the filter has been OK (confirmed with ammonia tests)
There is nothing else in the tank, apart from plants which might not be great with a blackout.
I have swapped heaters and it's a bit warmer at the bottom, more like 23c which is a bit better.
Peacock is now quite bloated. I fed him some pea as usual on sat, then nothing yesterday or today as he's still so fat! His tail and the back half of his anal fin are in tatters, Lotus seems to have stopped for the moment. [fingers crossed]
how long has he been bloated for, even if not as large as now.
not saying it isnt tailbiting. just be aware that other things could be going on. i know tailbiting is a real phenomenon but i think many times, finrot is overlooked. luckily usually it is easily corrected with proper water. sometimes antibiotics are needed, and that is difficult for you folks in the UK.
please let me know about his bloating. epsom salts may be helpful.
cheers
not saying it isnt tailbiting. just be aware that other things could be going on. i know tailbiting is a real phenomenon but i think many times, finrot is overlooked. luckily usually it is easily corrected with proper water. sometimes antibiotics are needed, and that is difficult for you folks in the UK.
please let me know about his bloating. epsom salts may be helpful.
cheers
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