Sump/fuge

[Siamese Fighter05]

Hey everyone

Just hoping that someone could describe how a sump/fuge works on a nano. This is how i understand it so far....

You Drill a hole into the back/side of your tank and then use PVC piping and fittings to have water drained out of the display into another tank underneath. Do you need to drill into the sump tank as well to direct the water in or can you just have the piping leading into the tank? This first compartment houses your protein skimmer (IF needed) as well as heater? You then have a glass wall between this compartment and the next one but a little room near the top for the water to flow over?

In the next compartment you can put in your LR rubble along with your macro's, this part will need lighting to help the macro grow. Then you have another glass wall with the gap near the tap to allow water to flow through. In the last compartment is your pump which pumps the water back up the PVC piping and back into the other side of the tank which is drilled, Of can you just go over the glass and in?

What is a bubble war and what is it's purpose?
You'll need a good flow for the 2nd compartment to help the LR and macro do their jobs. How do you do this? Is it just simply using a more powerful pump so that water is sent backdown to the sump faster?

Many thanks, Hopefully this will be very useful to me when i upgrade my tank to a 28 and use the 16 as a sump/fuge (If i do)
Dan

 

[Aquascaper]

The Basics of a Sump/Refugium:​

Getting water from the display tank to the Sump/Refugium:

• Drill through the back glass just below where the water level will be - You will require a bulkhead fitment and either a small, custom made weir & overflow box or a 90 degree bend pointing upwards. The water level will sit at the level of the weir or where the 90 degree pipe stops. The bulkhead is then connected with rigid pipework leading down to the sump.
• Drill through the bottom glass and fit a vertical pipe to just below the water surface - You will require a bulkhead fitment for the bottom of the tank and a vertical pipe. The water level will sit at the level of where the vertical pipe stops. A custom drilled stand will be needed to allow the rigid pipework leading down to the sump to be connected.
• Use an HoB acrylic overflow box - Uses a syphon action to lift water over the edge of the tank from an internal wier & overflow box to an external overflow box with a bulkhead fitment. The bulkhead is then connected with rigid pipework leading down to the sump.

Dividing the sump (Basic 3 Chamber Setup):

• 1st Chamber - The water flows down from the display tank and enters the chamber by gravity. Bioballs or other mechanical filtration can be placed in here. This chamber is separated from the next with a bubble trap consisting of under and over baffles. The 1st baffle is approx. 1" off the bottom and water flows under this, the 2nd baffle is level with the proposed water level in the sump, water flows over this into the 2nd chamber. The purpose of the bubble traps is to trap bubbles and stop them from ultimately entering the display tank again.
• 2nd Chamber - This is the main chamber and can be filled with combinations of live rock, macro algaes, mangroves, miracle mud, DSB according to preference. If live rock is to be placed in the sump/refugium then additional powerheads will be required to increase the flow rate in the sump. This area will also require light, the amount depends on what is to be housed in the chamber. This is also where heaters, skimmers, etc. are placed to be out of sight but still acessible.
• 3rd Chamber - The water flows through a final bubble trap before entering the final chamber to stop any unwanted bubbles from entering the display tank. The return pump draws water from this chamber and pumps it back up to the display tank. The return pump shoud be powerful enough to create a constant flow without flooding the display tank or draining the sump/refugium, a rate of 600gph (2250lph) is recommended but flow rate will depend a lot on pipe diameter in the system. If the pump requires regulating then a 'T' piece should be inserted on the return line. The spare line should befed back to the 2nd chamber with a valve to adjust flow. This prevents strain on the pump (leading to mechanical damage) and the more flow to the 2nd chamber = less flow to the display tank and vice versa. Some method of non-return needs to be incorporated into the return line to stop back-syphoning and flooding of the sump/refugium and draining of the main tank. This can be in the form of a non-return valve (if rigid piping) or two small holes drilled into the return hose (if flexible piping).

Getting water back to the display tank from the Sump/Refugium:

• Rigid Pipe - Usually used only when the return line is going back to the display tank via a bulkhead (meaning that the tank has to have a second hole drilled for the return line). This will require a non-return valve inline to prevent back-syphoning in the event of power loss.
• Flexible Pipe - More common method using a 'U' bend to hook over the tank lip which is sometimes then attached to a spraybar. Two small holes drilled in the 'U' bend (one just below the water line and one just on the water line) will break the syphon in the event of power loss and thus preventing back-syphoning.

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks for that Aquascaper
You've helped me with my questions but i'm also a little confused on some points

I understand that by drilling the hole just under the water level will stop the whole tank being drained in the event of a powercut (I have a fair few of these ) I suppose you hide this with LR?

My guessing is that the bulkhead is what stops leaking from the hole and it also connects onto the piping. I would prefer to use a 90 degree turn as this seems to be the easiest and less space consuming way. Is this way reliable? I also don't understand the 90 degree turn being pointed upwards? Did you mean downwards so that the piping then goes down towards the sump?

I'm a bit lost now as the 90 degree part has my confused unless it was a typo, i'll carry on anyway

You say to drill through the bottom glass. Do you mean drill into the side of the sump and then put the vertical piping just under the surface to stop splashing and also reduce the amount of noise?

I'm having a stand custom made if i do go the sump route so i can have the chap help me out with the measurements of the drilling in that.

I won't need the HOB overflow box if i use this method will i?

I understand the sump layout now and the bubble wall, Thanks for that But

Would i need to leave the sump half empty or 75% full so that any overflow can handled without flooding the sump (And then my floor )

Lastly, Phew! )

How do the two lines on the return tubing (I'll be using flexible tubing i think) break the siphon in a powercut?

Thanks alot for your help, I'm really bad with any DIY so thanks for breaking it down to Dumbass level

Dan

 

[Aquascaper]

I understand that by drilling the hole just under the water level will stop the whole tank being drained in the event of a powercut (I have a fair few of these ) I suppose you hide this with LR??

You can hide it with live rock or leave it out in the open it will get covered in algae anyway and blend in over time.

My guessing is that the bulkhead is what stops leaking from the hole and it also connects onto the piping. I would prefer to use a 90 degree turn as this seems to be the easiest and less space consuming way. Is this way reliable? I also don't understand the 90 degree turn being pointed upwards? Did you mean downwards so that the piping then goes down towards the sump??

The bulkhead forms a sealed connection between the inside and outside of the tank. The upwards pointing 90 degree bend is inside the tank to create a mini weir, you can point it downwards if you like to create a durso-type overflow (slightly quieter). Outside the tank you can use a 90 degree bend to point the piping towards the sump/refugium. The main idea is to 'skim' the top level of water as this is where the dissolved organics are held and to send this to the sump for processing, this makes your filtration more effective. By pointing the 90 degree upwards it will draw the surface water down to the sump and stop any oily residue on the water surface (which also helps gaseous exchanges). The same effect is created with a weir and overflow box and also with a vertical pipe.

You say to drill through the bottom glass. Do you mean drill into the side of the sump and then put the vertical piping just under the surface to stop splashing and also reduce the amount of noise??

You can drill through the bottom of the display tank as an alternative to drilling through the back. This creates less clutter behind the tank but does require a vertical pipe to draw the water down. This can be effectively concealed by stacking rock around it. The piping that goes into the sump goes below the water level to reduce noise and this can just go straight in the top, no need to drill any holes in the sump/refugium.

I'm having a stand custom made if i do go the sump route so i can have the chap help me out with the measurements of the drilling in that. I won't need the HOB overflow box if i use this method will i? ?

If you drill the tank then there's no need for a HoB overflow box.

Would i need to leave the sump half empty or 75% full so that any overflow can handled without flooding the sump (And then my floor )?

The water level in the sump should be as high as possible with enough room to allow for the slight back-syphon of the water in the pipes, etc. The easiest way to calculate this is by doing a test run before you build the baffles in the sump/refugium. Run the tank and then cut the power, measure how much the water level in the sump rises and take that into account when measuring the height of the baffles.

How do the two holes on the return tubing (I'll be using flexible tubing i think) break the siphon in a powercut?

The end of the pipe is under water so if the power cuts the pump stops and water will flow back down the pipes through the pump and into the sump/refugium. As the sump/refugium is below the display tank level the water will back-syphon until the end of the pipe is exposed to air and the syphon breaks which will almost certainly lead to the sump flooding. By drilling two small holes in the pipe at the water surface the syphon breaks as soon as the power cuts and back-syphoning is minimal.

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Okay i've kind of designed a sump/refuge on the info you've given me....

Don't expect no CAD or so on here, just a bit of paint

Okay so, Firstly the drilling will be on the back not the side but it was easier to show you this way. I will keep it at the same height though.

I'll talk myself throughout as it helps make sense to me (And hopefully you as well) although you'll probably need to correct alot of things )

Okay as you say, a 90 degree turn pointing upwards to suck the water from the surface down into the sump. This 90 degree turn fits onto the bulkhead which is then linked onto another 90 degree turn facing downwards. This is then connected to vertical PVC piping. Then another 90 degree turning fitted into the drilled stand. A small piece of piping will then link this 90 up to another 90 which finally is linked onto a vertical piece of piping which shoots the water just underneath the surface. Got there in the end

Okay in this first department i will probably just have small internal filter crammed with a bit of rowa phos and carbon that i will change as often as needed.

Then is my first bubble wall which i'll put 1" firstly as you've said and then level with the surface for the water to slightly flow over.

Next compartment houses my LR rubble, Macros, Heater, Protein skimmer and then a MaxiJet600 to pump water around the rock.

Then another bubble wall identical to the last. Finally the pump which will send the water back up to the tank, with the T piece (If needed?) sending excess water back to the chamber. This will be flexible tubing so i can put it over the tank and maybe on a spraybar or just under the surface. Have i put the holes in the right place?

Obviously things aren't to scale (Duh!) so some of the piping wont travel half as far as the diagram makes it looks. All good, or corrections needed?

As you can see my LR is doing great with coraline covering it and my clownfish is thriving
Eat your heart out CAD uses

Dan

 

[SkiFletch]

You've got the idea there Dan. Just remember when designing your bubble walls that the level of the wall that is higest from floor to wherever it stops will be the water level of all compartments before it. So for instance if the last bubble wall (in your case on the right) went from the bottom of the chamber to 5" above the bottom, that will be your water level in all compartments to the left of it. However if your first bubble wall on the left is 7" tall off the floor, then the water in the first compartment with your media will be 7" but the water in the refugium will still only be 5". Remember the principal that water always seeks its own level and therefore always goes down when it can (thank you gravity).

Also do yourself a favor and put some union fittings somewhere inline with your two pipes going to and from the tank. At some point you'll have to take it apart and when you do, you'll want the ability to do so easily without cutting. Not sure if you guys refer to them as union fittings in the UK but here's a link to one so you know what you're looking for at the hardware store Union

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Ah thanks for that SkiFletch

That means that the second bubble wall has to be slighlty lower than the first one then?

because if it was higher than the first then the water would just flow over the first bubble wall making it useless right?

So i'd want to keep the bubble wall as high as possible to maximize water holding capacity but also at the same time allow enough room for overflow?

Sounds about right?

Thanks for the advice on the union, it makes sense to be able to get into the piping without cutting it. I guess this is just a saftey night incase there is a blocking in some tubing that needs removing?

Cheers
Dan

 

[SkiFletch]

That means that the second bubble wall has to be slighlty lower than the first one then? because if it was higher than the first then the water would just flow over the first bubble wall making it useless right?

Not necessarily. The bubbles tend to get trapped on the glass and then rise to the top of the system and are usually not pulled downward below the next part of the wall with the minimal currents involved.

So i'd want to keep the bubble wall as high as possible to maximize water holding capacity but also at the same time allow enough room for overflow?

Correct. Painful calculations will need to be taken to prevent flooding in the event of a power outage. If you do things in metric its easy as 1000 Cubic Centimeters = 1 Liter. So if you estimate that the level in your tank of say 100cm long by 50cm wide will drop 2cm before the overflow is dry that means you have 10000 cubic centimeters of water that will go back into your sump otherwise known as 10 liters of back flow. So in that case your sump needs to have 10 liters of dry space to fill up when your power goes out.

Thanks for the advice on the union, it makes sense to be able to get into the piping without cutting it. I guess this is just a saftey night incase there is a blocking in some tubing that needs removing?

Yeah, also at some point you're gonna want to change things around, and its a pain to remove piping without helpful unions

 

[Aquascaper]

As I have nothing planned tonight if you give me exact dimensions of the display tank and sump tank i'll knock something up on Sketchup for you

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Cheers Aquascaper if you could do that, it would be great

The display tank is 36"X12"X15" (LxWxH) although if the brace is the same height as the current tank the water height will only be up at 34cm. The stand will be obviously the same length and width but i'd like to make it higher than the average stands as i don't like bending down to look at the tank (Too much anway)

The sump will be 24"x12"x15" and same again with water height being at 34cm Max.

Thanks alot

Dan

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Okay just been looking at what parts i'd need, what size tubing should i go for?

My options are 25mm, 32mm, 40mm tubing so i'd have to have the tank drilled to one of these sizes. Which would work best?

Tank Connector - Guessing this is the bulkhead?

I think i'd need 4 90 degree turnings to get the water from the tank down into the sump, these?
Here

Then it's some pipe
Here

I think i'll only need the one union piece on this side, you agree?This

Hopefully that would just mean cutting pipe to size and then i have my water being sent down to the sump


I'll ask new questions about the sump when we get there

To get the water back up into the tank i'll have to find some flexible PVC (Any ideas?) and a T piece that will fit to it (If needed). Then it's just drilling two holes in the tubes and i'm good.

You'll probably need more exact measurments before i can ask for a reccomended pump so we'll leave it there for now

Thanks
Dan

 

[SkiFletch]

Those are the correct fittings and parts. You'll only need 25mm or smaller to be honest. I wouldnt go much less than 15mm, but 25 is plenty. I also cant believe that those parts are not cheaper from a home hardware or plumbing store as opposed to an aquarium store. I know here in the states those parts you listed are WAY cheaper at a home depot or the like.

As for the return of the sump to the display tank, it kind of depends on what size fittings you use for the pump. Something on the order of 15-25mm tubing would be fine there as well. Unless you get a REALLY powerful pump, a T probably won't be necessary. You've gotta get into pumps that do over 300gph at 4-6 feet of head pressure before you need to worry about the pump being too powerful.

Edit: Also, there's no reason that you can not use hard pvc tubing on the return line instead of flexible... No golden rule there

 

[Aquascaper]

This is who i've used in the past (Link)

BTW: My PC at home has died so the CAD will have to wait

As for return piping - use flexible.
I've found in the past that, due to the return feed being under pressure, the pipes can vibrate and if this is against the glass or stand it can be very annoying 'white' noise

 

[Siamese Fighter05]

Thanks for link and tips Aquascaper, i'll probably order off there when the times comes.
No Worries with th CAD you're help has been invaulable to me and i know 90% of the things i will need to make this sump a success

Dan