Sudden Tank Issues...

[magpie]

So... I've had my 65 gallon planted tank up and going since November. It's been doing great until the end of January when I ended up with some Ich, primarily in my Ricefish, but also on 2 Hatchetfish. I treated with Coppersafe and elevated temperatures and all was fine with the exception of the Ricefish - 4 died in the process, and it was the kuhli loaches and farlowella that I was concerned about, however they all fared just fine. I had a bunch of discussion with a member in another fish forum who also got some of these Ricefish, and it appears that they may be very susceptible to Ich, and they also may be prone to bloat or death from overfeeding on meaty foods. I feed bloodworms and live brine shrimp, and we're wondering if that was the actual possible cause of demise of these fish, who are relatively new to the hobby.

But, I digress... The tank seemed to bounce back from the Ich treatment, however I did get a small spike of ammonia - 0.25 - possibly from not finding the dead fish in the tank - since it's heavily planted I never found them. I have never had ammonia in the past, not even initially, and I was told that with my acidic pH (usu 6.6-6.8) that the ammonia shouldn't affect the fish much. Anyway, I did a water change, with the ammonia back down to zero and it stayed there.

All seemed fine. Everyone is happy, healthy, colorful, eating fine, etc. etc. I ended up adding some new fish - 2 Laetacara, 2 Apistos. Before I added them I did a water change and I added a piece of driftwood to the tank that had been soaking for months trying to get it to sink. I had another larger piece of the same chunk of wood in the tank for a very long time, weighted by a large rock and it was sinking so I removed the rock on top of it. The small one still wasn't fully sinking on it's own, so my husband suggested that we nail a plastic lid to the base and put that under the substrate to hold it down. I scrubbed the driftwood well under very hot water, we put it in the tank, and it looked great. I had a nagging feeling that the nail was a bad idea due to iron/rust potential, and had a nagging feeling that I should boil the wood before putting in the tank as it had been soaking for so long with just a few water changes...

4 days later it was bothering me so I took the wood out and replaced the nail with a stainless screw, figuring no rust would happen there. Put it back in the tank.

Everyone seemed OK, new additions were happy and active, colorful, eating like champs. Then a few days ago I had a pencilfish hanging out near the surface of the water. Didn't look good. They have long been my "canaries" for the tank - they let me know when something is off by hiding or acting "off." I tested the water - all looked good - ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, pH 6.7. There was also one hatchetfish maybe acting a little strange, not with the group, but they are always near the surface so it was harder to tell. It was maybe panting a bit, as was the pencilfish. I moved the spraybar of the filter near the surface in case it was an aeration issue.

Last night when I came home from work I had a dead pencilfish and two dead hatchetfish. I ripped out the driftwood. It was late, so I didn't water change. This morning, more dead hatchetfish, one more dead pencilfish, and I noticed that my tiny rainbowfish had gone to 6 from 12, not sure when. (Yet there was a baby rainbowfish fry in the surface floating plants. What the heck?) I immediately did a huge water change this morning.

My question to you is this - could it really have been the one nail? Do you think it was something on the driftwood? (As I mentioned, the same wood was used in the tank with no issue so it's not the type of wood, but maybe something on/in it from soaking forever?)

The only other changes I've had were that I added a bit of plastic screen/mesh to the input of my Eheim with two rubber bands, because when I cleaned the canister last month I found 3 of my smallest kuhlis inside the filter! They have all recovered fine. Could there have been something on the plastic mesh or rubber bands?? Maybe rubber bands were on veggies and there was a pesticide on the veggies? And it's strange how it's affected my mid/top dwellers and not my bottom feeders at all. Coincidence?

This is devastating! I've had such a happy healthy tank and then BAM so many deaths. I feel like I really try and do everything right, I really read a ton, I take care of everyone, and I pride myself in how happy my fish are.... but maybe if I had listened to my gut about the driftwood/nail then I wouldn't be in this position. I'm so mad at myself.

I want to cry. I love my hatchets and my pencilfish.

Everyone else is acting extremely normally. Kuhlis, gobies, cichlids, farlowella, the remainder of the hatchets, the remainder of the pencils, the remainder of the rainbowfish.

I would really love to add this piece of driftwood back in the tank as it looks so nice. Maybe if I boil and/or bleach (and then dechlor) and just weight it with a rock it will be OK? I don't want to chance it, and I wouldn't do it until I was sure everyone was healthy, but the fish liked that piece of wood. The farlowella and gobies loved to hang out on it.

What do you think???

Thanks in advance and thanks for reading!

 

[Cazgar]

Sorry.you've lost so many fish, it's always hard losing one, several must be harder.
I don't think it was the wood if it's the same kind you already have, & have been changing the water regularly that it's been soaking in.
I don't think it was the stainless screw either, I use a stainless steel fork to weigh down veggies for my Oto's all the time & never had a problem.
I think, though others might have different ideas that it's to do with the rubber bands, best to remove them for now

 

[MBOU]

If your water is testing ok and your other fish are ok, Id be more suspect of a disease being spread by contact.

It seems more to be spreading within the hatchets and pencilfish and rainbows that all share the same sort of territories at least some of the time if not most of the time.

Im going for disease i think.

If your water is testing ok and your other fish are ok, Id be more suspect of a disease being spread by contact.

It seems more to be spreading within the hatchets and pencilfish and rainbows that all share the same sort of territories at least some of the time if not most of the time.

Im going for disease i think.

 

[magpie]

I realized that maybe the plastic mesh screen I put in might be treated with something? It's for window/door screen. I replaced it with a substrate bag. Looks ugly but will do the trick for now. The smallest kuhli still might be able to fit in there or I'd leave it without anything.


What kind of disease would you suspect from contact? There were no zero outward visible signs that I could tell of any sort... Do you know of anything essentially invisible? As I mentioned, signs of ill fish were hanging at the top of the tank, listless, maybe some panting type of breathing. Of course color dulled when they got to that point as well.

I don't want to medicate unless I'm sure...

*sigh*

 

[thereverendturtle]

Ich frequently attacks the gills first, which causes rapid respiration and getting closer to the surface. It's possible the addition of the cichlids and slight rearranging of the tank was enough stress to the tetras and rainbows that some got ich. As far as meds for ich, coppersafe is ok, but I've lost more fish to that than any other med. I personally prefer quick cure.

Sorry for your loss. I don't think it was the wood or nail/screw, it would have taken a bit longer and had caused problems with all species in your tank.

 

[magpie]

It's so odd, though... when I had ich before, there were some spots visible before I caught it - I know that it hits the gills first, and that you'll often see flashing, but I haven't seen any flashing, and the last time, the Hatchetfish showed a few spots on their tails before they got treated and came through it totally fine... now they are dying without any spots showing even?

And it's so odd... the Rainbowfish were spawning, so they couldn't have been that stressed out...? Argh, I don't know.

I used Coppersafe because of the Kuhli loaches - for future reference, do you think can they tolerate quick cure?

 

[thereverendturtle]

I've never had an issue treating anything with quick cure. You do need to treat at half dose for a longer period of time with tetras, because they are more sensitive to formalin. Overall though, I've been using it for over 20 years and my biggest complaint is blue silicone.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I'm going for the introduced toxin theory. It could be the nail, or the screw, as some come pretreated with a lubricant to make driving easier. It could be the plastic you nailed it to, or a toxin on it. It could be any of the other items you introduced or a toxin on them.

When you lifted the original piece of wood was the substrate stained black? Was any unpleasant odour released?

 

[MBOU]

See id have thought if it was an introduced toxin, it would have effected all the fish/other more sensitive species with skin like khulis etc...

Could be something like gill flukes? Would cover the 'spread by contact within shoals', the 'gasping' and the 'death' side of it. Though there are so many illnesses it could be.

I'd probably start with doing a few good water changes. Gravel clean a couple of times incase it is a parasite that may have got to the gravel. And remove anything that might be a contaminant.

Personally I would treat the tank as well, probably Myxazinas Malachite and Acriflavin are fairly good at covering everything to an extent without being too much stress on more delicate species.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

See id have thought if it was an introduced toxin, it would have effected all the fish/other more sensitive species with skin like khulis etc...

Could be something like gill flukes? Would cover the 'spread by contact within shoals', the 'gasping' and the 'death' side of it. Though there are so many illnesses it could be.

I'd probably start with doing a few good water changes. Gravel clean a couple of times incase it is a parasite that may have got to the gravel. And remove anything that might be a contaminant.

Personally I would treat the tank as well, probably Myxazinas Malachite and Acriflavin are fairly good at covering everything to an extent without being too much stress on more delicate species.

I suppose the real test will be if any more fish die now that the potential toxins have been removed and the water has been changed. I certainly don't rule out some disease or parasite though, given that two new fish were introduced.

 

[magpie]

I've never had an issue treating anything with quick cure. You do need to treat at half dose for a longer period of time with tetras, because they are more sensitive to formalin. Overall though, I've been using it for over 20 years and my biggest complaint is blue silicone.

Thanks for the info... I may try it next time. I just always worry about the kuhlis.

I'm going for the introduced toxin theory. It could be the nail, or the screw, as some come pretreated with a lubricant to make driving easier. It could be the plastic you nailed it to, or a toxin on it. It could be any of the other items you introduced or a toxin on them.

When you lifted the original piece of wood was the substrate stained black? Was any unpleasant odour released?

No weird staining or odor. Someone in another forum mentioned that the mesh window/door screen stuff might be treated with something. (I'm such an idiot, I swear I am normally an intelligent person...) It's now gone, I replaced it with a substrate bag because I still have some smaller kuhlis who aren't caught up with the others in size yet.

See id have thought if it was an introduced toxin, it would have effected all the fish/other more sensitive species with skin like khulis etc...

Could be something like gill flukes? Would cover the 'spread by contact within shoals', the 'gasping' and the 'death' side of it. Though there are so many illnesses it could be.

I'd probably start with doing a few good water changes. Gravel clean a couple of times incase it is a parasite that may have got to the gravel. And remove anything that might be a contaminant.

Personally I would treat the tank as well, probably Myxazinas Malachite and Acriflavin are fairly good at covering everything to an extent without being too much stress on more delicate species.

I'll look up gill flukes, thanks. When should I do another water change, tomorrow night or Saturday? I don't normally clean the gravel because it's a planted tank. I can't get to it all anyway...

You would treat the tank even if not sure, and even with Kuhli loaches and Farlowella cats?

I suppose the real test will be if any more fish die now that the potential toxins have been removed and the water has been changed. I certainly don't rule out some disease or parasite though, given that two new fish were introduced.

When should the drop-off be? I'm thinking that if some were still ill by it, I may get one or two more deaths... or do you think they should recover with the large water change? I have one pencilfish acting in that way tonight, a male. Nose up, near the surface, not panting though. Hatchets seem OK - ate dinner like fools (live blackworms), and the Rainbows seem feisty and happy and are also eating crazily. Everyone else still looking good so far, too.

 

[MBOU]

I've never had problems with Khulis and certainly not Farlowella species with medications like Malachite or Acriflavin or low doses of Formalin (like that found in protozin) though if you are nervous... half the dose and double th time treated for.

I would probably hold off for a day or so more and see what happens, that pencilfish may be the last... if he isnt and another seems to go... thats when i would do a small water change and treat.

 

[magpie]

OK, I'll get something at lunch today in case it's flukes - I read about them and some of it matches (surface, gasping), some of it doesn't (hit fast without much warning/flashing). But I'm sure there are variations.

I just read that Praziquantel is safe and a great treatment for flukes... are you recommending Malachite / Acriflavin / Formalite because we're not positive and those hit more things?

 

[thereverendturtle]

That's why I recommended Quick Cure. It says ich on it, but it does work on lots of other things.
I don't know about Portland, but the only place I seem to be able to find it here is at Walmart. I know one of the mom and pops carries it, but they haven't had it lately.

 

[magpie]

Thanks!