Substrate & German Blue Ram Health

[hillmar77]

I think we have a misunderstanding... I meant you should check your kh/gh values In your tap water and see how close they are to your tank water. The difference between the two sources can cause fish to flash after a large water change, hence the reason to add gh/kh to the new water to match the tank water. Lol I know it's a little confusing!

 

[mark4785]

as for what your problem is? perhaps if you looked at things that, could be wrong, instead of blaming your substrate. to be fair i dont know your problem, perhaps BAD husbandry?

You're clearly just a mean-spirited little chap. I'm of the opinion that the substrate or something within it is causing problems for my GBR, I created this thread to get some advice to prove/disprove my theory and all you're concerned about is trashing my ideas and putting out the statement "bad husbandry". That to me, is a down right offensive comment without any supporting evidence. If it was bad husbandry causing the flicking/rubbing on my fish I would have sorted it by now.

PLAYSAND is totally, and utterly safe, so your argument is moot. you may feel better buying something with fish on. but making out things are safer that way, is utter tosh.

It's my opinion that fish would be safe or safer and that the consumer would be safer if an aquatic substrate was used as it would be possible to claim for a legal right to reimbursement under s14(3) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which concerns items which are not reasonably fit for their purpose. Thus, if I buy an aquatic product, which causes death to my fish I can get my money back for the product and the dead fish and any other relevant costs. If, however, I buy 'play sand' which has many purposes I won't have a simple route to obtaining a refund as the seller will argue that it is not supposed to be used in an aquarium.

So, to put it simply for you, seeing as you're misunderstanding everything I state, the consumer is much safer to be buying aquatic-specific products.

Thats why I don't buy 'play sand'. I don't care if people say it's safe for their fish because thats not the point. The point is that as it is not manufactured for use with fish, the purchaser ought to not be using it in exceptional ways as consumer law will not protect them if it was to cause harm.

you are fooling yourself if you think trying to get redress, though none will be needed, is gong to be easer if the stuff has fish on it.

You say that and you probably haven't even researched the matter. I've been studying consumer law for 2 years and see it has a hobby.

your suggestion that PlaySand is "unsafe" is both, unwarranted and unsubstantiated.

I haven't said or suggested it's un-safe. You've taken the word "unsafe" out of this sentence, which contains a THEORETICAL point, and used it to make an argument:

I have ordered some pea gravel from http/cgi.ebay.co.u...e=STRK:MEWNX:IT where it is described as 'Aquarium substrate' and mentions 'fish' in the title. That way, if it poisons the fish I'll be entitled to a refund of the product and compensation for the cost of the fish should they die. This is because i've paid money for something that is supposed to be safe with fish, if unsafe for use with fish, the seller has breached the part of the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979' which concerns 'fitness for purpose'.

You're putting words in my mouth. I've said if play sand happens to be un-safe in the aquarium, a right to refund is not available because the seller will argue that it shouldn't have been placed in an aquarium as it's main usage is outdoors in a sand pit. If it turned out to be unsuitable for use in a sandpit then the buyer would have an enforceable right to a refund (under s.14(3) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979; fit for purpose) as it should be safe/usable for playing with given that this is what it is most commonly used for. Putting play sand in an aquarium, however, is all well and good (presumably) but if it causes harm to the fish, the seller of the sand will not have to legally reimburse you if you've had the item more than 7 days after purchase and if you've not told him/her the exceptional purpose which you are using it for.

As for my opinion on play sand itself, I'd rather not use it in an aquarium based on what I know about consumer law and the fact that it's not tailored for use in an aquarium. That said, I'm not implying it's unsafe nor do I want to appraise whether it is safe or not because that wasn't the point of this thread.

In future I urge you to carefully read my posts as it appears you are making stuff up or just cannot read word for word what I'm trying to convey. An appreciation of the fact that consumer law exists would also help you out in life too because you stick out like a sore thumb right now.

 

[mark4785]

I think we have a misunderstanding... I meant you should check your kh/gh values In your tap water and see how close they are to your tank water. The difference between the two sources can cause fish to flash after a large water change, hence the reason to add gh/kh to the new water to match the tank water. Lol I know it's a little confusing!

Sorry about the misunderstanding there. I know from memory and from a 6-month trend of water stats that the GH level of the tank water differs from the GH of the tap water after 2 weeks of being in the aquarium. The KH level doesn't change much at all. The tank GH at most, will deviate from the tap water GH by around 2 dH over a 2 week period. This doesn't happen a lot though because I do water changes every week which causes the GH to go back to the GH level of the tap water.

 

[kaivalagi]

I'm of the opinion that the substrate or something within it is causing problems for my GBR, I created this thread to get some advice to prove/disprove my theory

Forgetting all the abrasive remarks posted thus far I have to agree with raptorrex regarding the substrate being unlikely to be a cause of discomfort to your fish, it is more likely a chemical imbalance / mini-cycle etc causing your fish distress that anything else. I would think you'd be best, as mentioned before to some degree, in testing your tank water for all the main levels of Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, KH, GH etc and comparing it to your tap water to see where you stand...if that is suspect in any way then I would get bigger water changes sorted out regularly (worst case 80% daily for a few days) and see what happens to those levels and the fish behaviour etc

PLAYSAND is totally, and utterly safe, so your argument is moot. you may feel better buying something with fish on. but making out things are safer that way, is utter tosh.

It's my opinion that fish would be safe or safer and that the consumer would be safer if an aquatic substrate was used as it would be possible to claim for a legal right to reimbursement under s14(3) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which concerns items which are not reasonably fit for their purpose. Thus, if I buy an aquatic product, which causes death to my fish I can get my money back for the product and the dead fish and any other relevant costs. If, however, I buy 'play sand' which has many purposes I won't have a simple route to obtaining a refund as the seller will argue that it is not supposed to be used in an aquarium.

So, to put it simply for you, seeing as you're misunderstanding everything I state, the consumer is much safer to be buying aquatic-specific products.

Thats why I don't buy 'play sand'. I don't care if people say it's safe for their fish because thats not the point. The point is that as it is not manufactured for use with fish, the purchaser ought to not be using it in exceptional ways as consumer law will not protect them if it was to cause harm.

As mentioned before I think it's a complete waste of cash spending serious money on bags of substrate made out to be aquatic safe...I refer you to the previous link I gave and also suggest you search and read about the many many fish keepers who use "play sand" and have no issue...it is a well known fact that using play sand or pool filter sand it totally fine in fish keeping

The same notion applies to gravel, pea gravel is pea gravel whether it has the words "aquatic" or "fish" in it's description or not...

Also, as mentioned earlier too, you'll have no hope in arguing fish deaths are due to substrate choice or any other for that matter...there are so many factors in keeping fish it just wont fly IMHO, and a "fish" substrate might be suitable for one fish and not another...anyway, the only issues from substrate I can see would be 1) it being non-neutral and affecting pH and therefore your fish or 2) being sharp where it needs to be more rounded for the type of fish being keep (specific fish requirement) or 3) it not being washed properly before use and introducing foreign chemicals of harm to the fish...any way you look at the situation it would be the fish keepers responsibility to use the correct substrate properly regardless of it being "aquatic" or general type and just buying a "fish" substrate gives no guarantees for a specific fish species...it might work for goldfish but not for GBR etc etc etc

I don't want to start or perpetuate an argument, I am merely stating my opinion based on my knowledge of the hobby, my past experience of using various aquatic and general substrates, and of course all that I have read and learned from the helpful bunch of posters in this forum.

Anyhow, how is the gravel working out?

 

[mark4785]

...I refer you to the previous link I gave and also suggest you search and read about the many many fish keepers who use "play sand" and have no issue...it is a well known fact that using play sand or pool filter sand it totally fine in fish keeping Posted Image The same notion applies to gravel, pea gravel is pea gravel whether it has the words "aquatic" or "fish" in it's description or not...

Yes, and I never said play sand would cause an issue towards the fish. I said it would cause an issue if the consumer (purchaser of the play sand) was to try and argue that the play sand was not fit for purpose in an aquarium as the seller would argue that it's main use doesn't involve installing it an aquarium in the first place.

I'm not going to keep coming back to this thread having to explain the same thing over and over.

nly issues from substrate I can see would be 1) it being non-neutral and affecting pH and therefore your fish or 2) being sharp where it needs to be more rounded for the type of fish being keep (specific fish requirement) or 3) it not being washed properly before use and introducing foreign chemicals of harm to the fish..

Point 1. Manufacturer has told me it's PH neutral. I've also been told by an experienced forum member (SuperColey) that a change in PH doesn't directly harm fish. It is the change in mineral content as indicated by levels of KH/GH in the water that harm fish when they fluctuate. If PH changes realisticly caused a detriment to fish then no one would be injecting carbonic acid into their planted tank would they?

Point 2. Yes, possibly, I did start this thread to reach out to others that have experience of keeping GBR's on the substrate I use or a very similar sharpish substrate in the hope that someone could give some feedback as to how their dwarf ciclids respond to it. So far, though, all I've received in the way of feedback is commentary telling me I don't know how to keep fish and that the substrate isn't the source of the problem, without any reasoning to backup these comments.

Point 3. It is a pre-prepared substrate that doesn't require any washing.

I would think you'd be best, as mentioned before to some degree, in testing your tank water for all the main levels of Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, KH, GH etc and comparing it to your tap water to see where you stand

Tank Total ammonia is 0 ppm , Tap water Total Ammonia is 0 ppm.
Tank Nitrite is 0 ppm, Tap water Nitrite is 0 ppm.
Tank Nitrate is 20 ppm, Tap water Nitrate is 0 ppm.
Tank KH is 5 dH, Tap water KH is _ dH
Tank GH is dH, Tap water GH is _dH
Tank PH is 6.6, Tap water PH is 7.2.

You know, in creating this thread, I thought people would help me look into the substrate as a possible hazard rather than believing I'd just plop several fish into an aquarium under going a mini-cycle..

 

[raptorrex]

well mark4785, you may have studied consumer law for 2 years ( my experience is ten times that) . but you will never prove substrate is causing the problem. (not that it is). do you have full and verifiable statisticas of the water prior to you adding the substrate? no not a cheap paper or liquid test.

you can, and will, never prove substrate is causing you problem. and if you buy it from fleabay, you have no chance at all.

i, kinda, understand your view. but you are no more protected with Aquarium substrate than PlaySand. which was my point. your entire reasoning is based on having somebody to blame, and, misguided, reliance on "getting reparations". neither of which you can do, simply because you will never prove anything. however much you wish to.

again PlaySand is totally safe to use in aquaria. and you will gain nothing by buying something with Aquarium on the label.

I dont think its "mean spirited" to point out somebody's delusions. and delusions they are.

 

[mark4785]

well mark4785, you may have studied consumer law for 2 years ( my experience is ten times that) . but you will never prove substrate is causing the problem. (not that it is). do you have full and verifiable statisticas of the water prior to you adding the substrate? no not a cheap paper or liquid test.

you can, and will, never prove substrate is causing you problem. and if you buy it from fleabay, you have no chance at all.

i, kinda, understand your view. but you are no more protected with Aquarium substrate than PlaySand. which was my point. your entire reasoning is based on having somebody to blame, and, misguided, reliance on "getting reparations". neither of which you can do, simply because you will never prove anything. however much you wish to.

again PlaySand is totally safe to use in aquaria. and you will gain nothing by buying something with Aquarium on the label.

I dont think its "mean spirited" to point out somebody's delusions. and delusions they are.

I don't concur with you I'm afraid and I don't really want to discuss this any further with you as you are changing the purpose of this thread. Anything which I've purchased up to now that I feel breaches consumer law statute, I have successfully obtained reimbursement for. That's what I'll be remembering instead of your replies which are more than likely just based on a rant over a refund you've lost with a seller on eBay.

I'd like to point out that you are on my ignore list as at no point have I ever spoke with somebody who has called me delusional and incompetent and not see the need to apologise.



I'd like it if this thread could continue as if no disruption had occurred.

Thanks.

 

[kaivalagi]

You know, in creating this thread, I thought people would help me look into the substrate as a possible hazard rather than believing I'd just plop several fish into an aquarium under going a mini-cycle..

I didn't say that you were in a mini-cycle I just said it was more likely than a substrate issue, all I was doing was trying to understand the issue from all angles as substrate is very unlikely to be the cause. I am also an experienced fish keeper just like Raptorrex is and want to understand as much as possible and not jump to any unfounded conclusions on the reason for your fish woes.

I think, for me, the main thing I am picking up on here (apart from you wanting to argue with anything that contradicts your opinion) is your belief that purchasing a product, under the guise of consumer law, will help you and will also help your fish...not true. If a product says it is aquarium safe and that it doesn't need washing it isn't necessarily the case, especially when bought from ebay etc...what's best to understand is what the full requirements of the fish are and that what preparation you can do with substrate for example before using it - if you didn't wash an "aquarium" substrate or any other for that matter it might just be the cause of your troubles.....(try arguing that case with the sand supplier)

That being said I still think the substrate is not a cause of the issues, it will be interesting to see if the issue goes away using pea gravel rather than sand...if we ever hear from you on this matter again...I suspect it is purely down to fish behaviour causing undue rubbing.

Feel free to ignore me now too for speaking my mind

 

[shasm]

I may be way off base and probably am, but doesn't dead cyano produce something toxic to fish. Is it possible that there are trace amounts of this in the substrate? Once again I am just an idiot so don't hesitate to tell me.

 

[mark4785]

You know, in creating this thread, I thought people would help me look into the substrate as a possible hazard rather than believing I'd just plop several fish into an aquarium under going a mini-cycle..

I didn't say that you were in a mini-cycle I just said it was more likely than a substrate issue, all I was doing was trying to understand the issue from all angles as substrate is very unlikely to be the cause. I am also an experienced fish keeper just like Raptorrex is and want to understand as much as possible and not jump to any unfounded conclusions on the reason for your fish woes.

I think, for me, the main thing I am picking up on here (apart from you wanting to argue with anything that contradicts your opinion) is your belief that purchasing a product, under the guise of consumer law, will help you and will also help your fish...not true. If a product says it is aquarium safe and that it doesn't need washing it isn't necessarily the case, especially when bought from ebay etc...what's best to understand is what the full requirements of the fish are and that what preparation you can do with substrate for example before using it - if you didn't wash an "aquarium" substrate or any other for that matter it might just be the cause of your troubles.....(try arguing that case with the sand supplier)

That being said I still think the substrate is not a cause of the issues, it will be interesting to see if the issue goes away using pea gravel rather than sand...if we ever hear from you on this matter again...I suspect it is purely down to fish behaviour causing undue rubbing.

Feel free to ignore me now too for speaking my mind

I don't ignore people who speak their mind. I ignore people that bust into my thread to contradict everything I say and chuck in a few rude, uncalled for comments. Your feedback is appreciated and nothing you've said would even remotely make me want to disregard your comments. As for the following quotation "arguing with anything that contradicts your opinion", I'd like to point out that consumer law is based on facts, not opinion. I'm not going to risk changing the topic so that's all I'll say with regards to law.

I may be way off base and probably am, but doesn't dead cyano produce something toxic to fish. Is it possible that there are trace amounts of this in the substrate? Once again I am just an idiot so don't hesitate to tell me.

I have read about that too. I'm not sure how I'd go about testing to see if there are any cyanotoxins in the substrate. As indicating by this thread, the only evidence I have that something is wrong is based on the clinical signs of 1 fish out of 8. For the first 2 months that the German Blue Ram was in the aquarium, he never flicked/rubbed. When I swapped the other inhabitants of the tank (Bolivian Rams) for a shoal of Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish, thats when the GBR began to rub/flick. I treated the tank with highly effective parasiticides but the flicking/rubbing never ceased.

As shown by the picture I provided in an earlier reply, the underside of his mouth appears to be more red now as though the rubbing has caused some skin redness. Could it be that the redness (secondary infection/abbrasion) is now the cause of the rubbing rather than the primary cause? (skin/gill flukes). It may be that this redness comes with maturity so again this is something that I wouldn't mind some feedback on.

By the way, you are not an idiot, what gave you that idea?!

I suspect it is purely down to fish behaviour causing undue rubbing.

I'd agree that some of it is natural behaviour as I've observed GBR's rub themselves on pieces of wood and substrate in my LFS. I'm told they do it to disturb any food around them so they can better eat it.

The kind of rubbing I'm seeing is sometimes very excessive. He will waddle his fins at the speed of light and then look like he's about to have seizure and will then rub himself anywhere between 3-10 times in a matter of seconds going from one end of the tank to the other. Thats the pattern of behaviour that occurs everytime in that particular order.

 

[mark4785]

I've just conducted a water parameter test for both the tank and tap water, and here are the results:

Tank Total ammonia is 0 ppm , Tap water Total Ammonia is 0 ppm.
Tank Nitrite is 0 ppm, Tap water Nitrite is 0 ppm.
Tank Nitrate is 20 ppm, Tap water Nitrate is 0 ppm.
Tank KH is 5 dH, Tap water KH is 4 dH
Tank GH is 8 dH, Tap water GH is 8 dH
Tank PH is 6.6, Tap water PH is 7.2.

There isn't really much of a difference; theres no mini nitrogen cycle and there's not much a variation. So I guess that rules out the possibility of my W/C routine being too infrequent since lack of W/C's can cause tank parameters to change dramatically from the parameters of the tap water. Thus, when I conduct a W/C an excessive equilibrium reaction won't be causing physiological stress on the fish.

And, as mentioned in my previous reply, I doubt there are any microscopic parasites in the aquarium because I've treated for them with solutions containing copper, malachite green and formalin and also because only one fish is demonstrating irritability. If the tank contained parasites I'd expect most of the fish to be rubbing.

I think the cause of the rubbing is either the substrate itself or this redness i've mentioned. Anyone have their own opinion on this?

 

[hamfist]

I have been follwing the thread without commenting so far, as it has been seeming to be such a puzzle. However ....
The parasiticides that you have used are certainly not effective against all parasites. Some of them are stubborn little blighters.
From your repeated descriptions in your last few posts I am becoming suspicious of chronic parasite infection in that particular fish. May well be worth a try using flubendazole (available at most LFS in the UK as a pond fish anti-worms/flukes treatment).
Flubendazole is always my first line of attack against parasites as it is almost side-effect free (if you don't overdose), and one treatment almost always does the job. Like all treatments, however, it won't work against everything and,in particular, seems to be uneffective against ich.

 

[kaivalagi]

Good call on the treatments not covering all possibilities Hamfist
It might be a good idea to post pics, test results, descriptions etc in the tropical emergencies section to hopefully get a decent diagnosis (Is Wilder still the "doctor" in charge?)...I for one am looking at the pic and seeing nothing directly parasitic about the affected area but it could be due to rubbing because of a parasite possibly.

 

[loraxchick]

flicking can also be a sign of internal parasites. Take not of the fish's poo. Any white/stringy/moucusy poo would be suspect. Not saying that is the cause but a possibility.
I have no experience with GBRs myself but someone else had mentioned it may be behavioral. Worth looking into if you havent already or perhaps someone else can chime in to verify that. Maybe the fish is "coming of age" so to speak? Just another potential possibility. As is the Gh/Kh. I know GBRs are pretty specific in their requirements.
I would really doubt it is plain down to the type of substrate unless it is not inert and causing chemical changes in the tank which the fish doesnt appreciate.
Whatever the case, i hope you sort it out. The ram sure is beautiful and looks in great health otherwise.
cheers!

 

[raptorrex]

I'd like it if this thread could continue as if no disruption had occurred.

Thanks.

does disruption mean somebody says something you don't like?

as, virtually, everybody else has stated. substrate is not you problem. myopic insistence it is, clouds your ability to find the real problem. this myopia forces you to look for, someone/thing else to blame for your problems.