Substrate & Filtration

[TragikMagik72]

I have have previos marine tanks in the past and am pretty familliar with the basics..I am trying to find a differant substrate other than sand. I like to clean the tank and sand is a burddon. I am starting a 25G tank. I have used undergravel filters in my past freshwater tanks but never salt. My LFS has this live argonite stuff thats alot of shells and crush coral... I was thinking using and undergravel filter with this small but not fine substrate, so that cleanings are easier.. I plain on having nice amount of live rock and maybe a fish or two. I have a Red Sea Prism skimmer and a Hagen 402 powerhead running.... as of this moment i just mixed the salt in a bare tank and would like some ideas or input on what to do..Navaree your opinon woould be appreciated... thanks

 

[crazyelece]

UGF are great for breaking down ammonia and nitrite but not nitrate. Sand w/out UGF can do both. There are mainly two problems with UGFs in marine setups. First is they plug up, no exceptions, eventually the UGF will plug with detrius and you will have to tear down the entire setup to clean it. Second is the breakdown factor, much like having bioballs and ceramic rings the nitrate produced will outweigh the nitrates being consumed and they will climb out of control.

IMO aggronite sand is the best choice, the next best would be a crushed coral substrate; no UGF with either.

 

[Aquascaper]

Some people have just bare bottom tanks and let the coraline algae colonise it. This does remove a major pH buffer from the systems which would need to be taken into consideration.

UGF have no place in a marine system where stability is the key, when they get blocked the resulting disruption to the rockwork, substrate, etc. will seriously affect the parameters in the tank and prevent fish and inverts from settling properly IMO

 

[TragikMagik72]

I had a guy at my LFS the other day tell me about how all he used to have is bare bottom tanks, but LR was there to compensate.? This was a new idea to me but made me ponder...I like to vacume clean my tank every once in a while and sand just dont cooperate with that very well... I though about just using basicly pea gravel from the hardware stote with the UGF. think that would clog up?...I also have about 35+ pounds of live and base rock thats goin in....Here's another though just a bare bottome with a UGF? ....I know the substrate has alot to do with the stababilty of a tank becasue of the bacteria that live in it..right?....What all options are out there for me I dont really trust my LFS too much because I've been goin there longer than they've worked there..lol I don't know I'm lost on what to put as the bottom...I hear tell of this maricle mud stuff? anyone know about that? But all in all with a fine substrate the UGF is out of the picture, or should it be out all togather no matter the substrate? Thanks for your opinions....

 

[Aquascaper]

UGF are not recommended in saltwater tanks as they get blocked with debris no matter what substrate is used and thus require a tank strip down to clean them. This causes unnecessary disturbance and stress to the occupants of the tank and can unsettle the water parameters. The purpose of an UGF is to use the substrate as a filter, this is not required in a saltwater tank as live rock does the job far better. There is also no need to clean the substrate in a saltwater tank as the cleanup crew do that for you and anything trapped in the substrate is used by the biological life that lives in it such as bristleworms, pods, snails, etc. Disturbing the substrate to clean it means that you will disturb the layers that form which are very beneficial to the nitrogen cycle, depending on how frequent the cleaning is this could also cause toxic gases such as cyanide to be realeased when disturbed.

Your obsession with cleaning the tank will be your undoing IMO as the only thing that should be cleaned in a saltwater tank is the glass. If you persist in cleaning away all the debris, algae, etc. then you will starve a vast number of species out of existence that reply on that to survive and thus upset the food chain therein.

If you prefer a 'clean' tank then freshwater will suit better.

 

[steelhealr]

UGF's are prehistoric in the world of marine tanks. Barebottom are 'trendy'. I prefer a thin sandbed. You can gently gravel vac a sandbed. SH

 

[Aquascaper]

Gently 'hoovering' the surface of the sandbed is ok........I just have images of people ramming gravel vacs into the substrate and creating swirling clouds of crap which is what is required to keep a UGF running efficiently

I can honestly say i've never considered my substrate to look dirty and in need of a 'hoover' as the cleanup crew do a great job.

 

[TragikMagik72]

OK so no UGF for sure... should i go with sand or a larger argonte?....I would like to use as little as possiable is an inch across too little? and aslo how important is carbon in a salt water tank... I have had FW thrive with nothing but moving and phisical filtration.?

 

[Aquascaper]

If you prefer a cleaner looking tank then I would go for the larger Argonite as it will not show up detritus as readily and maybe curb your urge to vaccum
It will also act as a very good buffer for the tanks pH and 1" depth should be fine

Carbon is only required to remove meds really (or stop Ozone from entering the water column).

The best filtration you can get for a saltwater tank is live rock with plenty of water flow, mechanical filtration just causes a build up of Nitrates whereas live rock will get rid of it.

 

[TragikMagik72]

By mechenal filtration do you mean the carbon or the Polyester flossy stuff in the powerhead?

 

[Aquascaper]

Mechanical filtration = Any man-made material used for housing bacterial colonies and filtering such as ceramics, filter pads, bioballs, etc.

Biological Filtration = Live Rock, Fluidised Beds, DSB's, etc.

Basically any mechanical filter will house bacteria and become a Nitrate factory producing more than it removes so should be removed. Powerheads should be free running, ie. no pads, flosses, etc. and external cannisters should be empty apart from live rock.
The best way to filter the tank is lots and lots of lovely live rock

 

[TragikMagik72]

Great thanks i got the live rock..will my Red Sea Prism skimmer (i think for up to 110g.) and a hagen 402 powerhead (enough for a 55g.) be enough water movemnt in a 20-25 gal. tank? The tank is 24X12X12 inches does anyone know how to conver that to gallons...and tell me how for future referance?.......here's another thing... its kinda funny im just getting all my questions out on one forum, but o'well I have some live rock that has dried for a couple months, it was full of life when i pulled it out....And i have some base rock that was starting to turn into liverock that got flushed and put in FW... if I were to put the regular dried back in would i get life back to it?.....Would i get any from baserock that was in the FW? because alot of the coaline aglea lived in my FW so i was wondering if it will come back given the proper inviroment? Man thats alot of ?'s in one paragraph thanks guys for all your help though

 

[Aquascaper]

Will my Red Sea Prism skimmer (i think for up to 110g.) and a hagen 402 powerhead (enough for a 55g.) be enough water movemnt in a 20-25 gal. tank?

The skimmers is total overkill and will strip out everything from the water. TBH you probably won't need a skimmer on a tank that size as regular water changes will suffice in removing the dissolved organics. The powerhead should be fine though.

The tank is 24X12X12 inches does anyone know how to conver that to gallons...and tell me how for future referance?

10g

TFF Tank Calculator

If I were to put the regular dried back in would i get life back to it?

Yes, eventually

Would i get any from baserock that was in the FW? because alot of the coaline aglea lived in my FW so i was wondering if it will come back given the proper inviroment?

Yes, eventually. The coraline will be dead however as it cannot survive in FW. As its calcareous it would not dissolve so it would appear to be fine. You will find that, once placed back in a saltwater environment, it will starts to break up into a grey, mushy mess. Any 'dead' rock you add will cause an Ammonia spike so do not add any to a tank with life in it.

 

[TragikMagik72]

Yeah that table is kinda shaky for an empty volume as it equivilates for who knows how much sand LR and fish....i know i have 18 gal in now and its 1/2 in from black plastic band at the top...and thats great ill eventually get life back....so no skimmer huh?....i have a smaller POS skilter fora 55 its a skimmer filter combo. but media could be removed...would that be better or should i just go with no skimmer...Right now the tank is empty minus hardware, i mixed the salt a day ago...everythings still kinda cloudy and foams easily...When i put this rock in the tank is it going to make it start its cycle? and if so should i have the substrate in there for that?? I think i should right?....but if i drop the skimmer idea all togather will the powerhead be enough or sure i bring in a spare 30-60 backpack i have in its place?

 

[L200]

An interesting thread,i too have a nitrate problem measuring 20 plus on the salifert test kit!
I use a external but its got only kent nitrate sponge which im not impressed with and some rowaphos in a filter bag,was thinking of putting a nitrate reactor/reducer of putting in a refugium,what would be the best way forward do you think?