Substrate Depth?

in a freshwater aquarium with plants 4 inches is about as deep as you want to go. More than 4 inches and you get lots of anaerobic pockets.
If there are no plants then there is no need to have more than 1 inch of substrate.

in a marine tank "deep sand bed" you can have a foot of substrate but that is designed to become anaerobic and act as a denitrating filter.
Normal marine tanks only need an inch or two of substrate.

if there is an undergravel filter in the tank then you can have more than 4inches of gravel but that isn't really necessary.
 
in a freshwater aquarium with plants 4 inches is about as deep as you want to go. More than 4 inches and you get lots of anaerobic pockets.
This is not true at all. Anaerobic pockets are a much overhyperd problem and shouldn't really occur at all in a planted tank because the plant roots will consume this organic matter. Whats more we often purposefuly put a nutrient rich substrate UNDER our main substrate. If you are properly planting then ignore this advice. Some scapes (including mine) have areas with substrate as deep as 8 inches and I have never had a problem with it (and it has a heavy fishload)

This scaremongering statement also only applies to sand!! and not other substrates.

If there are no plants then there is no need to have more than 1 inch of substrate.
No need but no probme if you want more.

if there is an undergravel filter in the tank then you can have more than 4inches of gravel but that isn't really necessary.
You can have what depth you want but dont use sand with an undergravel filter. any other type of filter you can have whatever substrate and depth you wish.

Andy
 
tom barrs mammoth tank that he did has substrate 1 foot deep at the back, and just think how deep the substrate of a stream or river in natural conditions is.
 
So, no need for concerns about Methane bubbles or pockets forming from organic decomposition in Eco-Complete at bottom of 4" substrate? I suppose I could "probe" the bottom every 6 months or so just to keep the substrate loose. An awful lot of people (on the forums) have exclaimed that anything over 3" was a disaster waiting to happen. One moderator even told me my tank would explode...as in blowup. I have yet to have anyone who made such claims provide me with published documented evidence that there is some number (depth in inches) that supports their position. I have never read any such study...but if one exist I would love to know about it.
 
the mammoth tank is pure eco complete substrate, if your worried just invest in some malaysian trumpet snails, they will burrow in the substrate and mix through it.
 
the mammoth tank is pure eco complete substrate, if your worried just invest in some malaysian trumpet snails, they will burrow in the substrate and mix through it.

I googled those little critters and the site I was reading said that you can't find them in the lfs. Any idea where to buy them (if I decide to go that route)? I don't want something that once introduced will become a problem with proliferation.
 
tom barrs mammoth tank that he did has substrate 1 foot deep at the back, and just think how deep the substrate of a stream or river in natural conditions is.
streams and rivers do have mud going down as far as you want to dig, however they also have a lot more water, and it's generally flowing thru them. An aquarium only has a small volume of stationary water that gets partially changed very now and then. Further to that if you dig down 6inches into a muddy river bed you come across black mud or sand which is anaerobic.

While some aquarium plants do have massive root systems, (swordplants) that grow into 6 or 8 inches of soil, many plants only have small shallow roots that don't go more than a couple of inches down. These shallow rooting plants don't do much for helping keep the deeper substrate clean.

Any substrate, be it gravel or sand, can become anaerobic. If there is no oxygenated water moving thru the gravel then it will become anaerobic.

One of the main reasons yuo don't have more than 4 inches of gravel in the tank is because it takes up so much space. Most aquariums are only 18-24 inches high. If you have 4 inches of gravel that leaves you with less than 20inches of water. The more gravel you have the less water you have.
Having more gravel in a monster tank, (say 3 or 4ft high) isn't an issue in this regards.
 
i see your point completely colin, but i think the hype people make over anaerobic pockets being able to kill their fish is a bit much, especially in a large tank, with a large body of water, i also agree with the height of the tank issue, if you have a 15" high tank why are you gonna want more than 3 or 4 inches of substrate, it will only reduce your gallonage at the end of it all.

Regards, Angus
 
Well my main reason for making my substrate a little deeper than most is because I do have a 25" tall tank. I think the proportions look better. Having 2" in a tall tank looks just as much "off" as have 4" in a small tank.

then it will become anaerobic
Of course there are going to anaerobic conditions, but is that a "bad" thing? Anaerobic metabolism by heterotrophic bacteria occurs in denitrification, nitrate respiration, fermentation, methanogenisis (my concern and point of thread), and the reduction of iron and other metals. I'm not a chemist, but fermantation is the decomposition of organic matter in the substate (like Eco-Complete) so that it becomes useful and beneficial to the plants. Again, if I'm wrong and misunderstanding something, I would like to understand it.

I've come to the conclusion that perhaps there really hasn't been any studies that have addressed this subject. I can't find any and I've notice that there have been several threads on this topic and they are not getting many replies. I think nobody really knows. I seriously doubt that there is a threshold depth around 5" or less that will cause catastrophic failure. Is there some increase risk as depth increases, probably. But has it been studied and quantified to determine if there is a threshold limit. I don't think such a study exist. And yet so many people (on other forums) have made statements as if it were common knowledge based on sound scientific data. Show me where it says "Beware the aquarist who uses more than x inches of substrate". I don't doubt that such a threshold exist. I just want to see the evidence or even a discussion based on some measured experiment.

Ok. that's enough.
 
Its an urban myth that people have spread around. It happens and it can kill fish but at the end of the day in a planted tank the plants will remove most of it before it gets to the bottom.

Even then it shouldn't be a problem because if it was then there wouldn't be any organic substrates to put under the gravel/sand! They would all have to be thehard grit like substrates like TetraComplete!!.

The back of my tank is 8 inches in some places. If we were to limit the height of our substrates to 4 inches then we would not be able to scape anymore because some of our scapes require these 'mounds'

I suggest you do some research on this subject. The problem has never been suggested to be the substrate.

If using sand then make sure to use 2 inches or less due to compaction. Under the sand then there can be 20 inches of other material. It is due to the sand being such a fine partical size that this anaerobic 'problem' occurs.

This is still normally negated with theuse of MTS and plants anyway.

If you don't believe me then read this (on our very own forum) written by the week respected and incredibly knowledgable nmonks.

You might want to just clarify the "silver sand" bit. There are two grades sold (at least here in the UK), known as 'sharp' and 'smooth'. Sharp sand is unsuitable. What you want is smooth silver sand, and this stuff is usually sold in garden centres for use with various types of plant. It's inexpensive, and usually costs less than aquarium gravel.

I _always_ use silver sand in my tanks. With fish like spiny eels, burrowing gobies, and freshwater flatfish, sand is essential. Puffers and cichlids also seem to like foraging in it.

My plants have always done really well in it. There's a misconception that anerobic conditions in the substrate are bad. They're bad only if the gases build up and come out into the tank. In a well maintained tank this won't happen.

The plants carry oxygen down their roots through special air spaces inside them (that's why bits of aquatic plant root float). This helps keep the substrate less anaerobic that it might be. But the low oxygen concentration also creates "reducing" conditions that shift mineral ions to the forms that plants can absorb. This is the opposite to what an undergravel filter does, which "oxidises" the minerals making them unavailable to the plants, and why plants usually grow badly in tanks with undergravel filters.

Burrowing fish and Malayan snails will remove any food long before the gases build up, and the Malayan snails also help aerate the substrate as they burrow through it.

In ten years of using sand in tanks, often to depths of 7-8 cm, I have never, ever seen or smelled any dangerous gases. Incidentally, I place sand on top of a layer of pond compost to maximise plant growth... this works really well.

So, my thing is this: if the fish and plants like sand so much, why do so many people still use gravel?


Hope this clears this little problem up

Andy
 
In ten years of using sand in tanks, often to depths of 7-8 cm, I have never, ever seen or smelled any dangerous gases.
Maybe I'm missing something, but 8 cm is just barely over 3 inches. I don't think anyone has suggested that 3 inches or 8 cm is a problem. The question is about establishing (if there is one) a maximum limit or threshold before it definitely becomes a problem. I'm trying to figure out if I need to take the fish out, remove all the plants, take some of the substrate out (down to a "safe" level), and start over. I'm just starting the 4th week with the tank. If I'm gonna have to do it, I'd rather do it now rather 6 months from now.

I am considering the Malaysian Trumpet Snails, but I understand the get out of control. That doesn't sound too good to me.
 
In the post I took this from there used to be a picture of nmonks substrate to show the layers. It has gone now as he must've tidied his photobucket.

It had a layer of sand on top of some compost which had been mixed with some gravel. It sloped from the left of the tank down to the right and the left mustve been a foot or so deep. the top layer of sand would've been the 8-10cm.

I have 2 inches of silver sand on top of Tropica Substrate on top of Leonardite and on the bottom I put......Mulm (fish poop etc, taken from the filter after emptying the previous substrate).

Theory disproven me thinks. Anaerobic pocket scaremongering belongs in forums other than planted I'm afraid.

Andy
 

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