STUCK AT BIRTH!!

[justqu3]

Hello Fish Fam

I’m back with a weird question/ update.

Sooooo one of female guppy has given birth today around 4:30pm EST. I have about 13 newbies in my nursery. However, I’ve noticed that 2 of them are actually stuck together by the stomach.

They swim perfectly fine as of right now, but I’ve noticed when one gets (I assume) overwhelmed, they plummet to the bottom before swimming off again. Should I attempt to separate them (with the sad possibility of them losing their lives) OR just allow them to live and see what the outcome is naturally?

Has anyone experienced this before?

Sidebar: my tank water is so dirty looking from the algae wafers I give the snails. I was planning of cleaning the tank and changing the water today but I can’t now. I’ve been told on several occasions to NOT change the water when newborn fry have arrived, for at least 4 weeks.

 

[foxgirl158]

Ohh you have conjoined twins!! I had a pair like that, joined at the egg sac. Unfortunately they were too underdeveloped to survive long and died two days after birth. Here they are!! I called them Deuce

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Oooh interesting! Personally I'd leave them be and see what happens...keep us updated!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Sidebar: my tank water is so dirty looking from the algae wafers I give the snails. I was planning of cleaning the tank and changing the water today but I can’t now. I’ve been told on several occasions to NOT change the water when newborn fry have arrived, for at least 4 weeks.

Whaaa? Who on earth told you that?? It's nonsense. Water changes are even more essential when you have fry in the tank, and doing water changes won't harm them as long as the replacement water is the same temp as the tank before adding it in, and you've used a water conditioner to handle any chlorine/chloramine in the tapwater.

People who breed fish, including guppies, say to do large frequent water changes. It produces healthier stock that grows faster, and since you're usually feeding more frequently than with adult fish - ideally 3-5 times per day rather than 1-2 for adults, the water can go bad quickly with leftover food and the waste the fish produce from the frequent feeding, and fry are even more vulnerable to ammonia/nitrites/nitrates rising. You want zero ammonia, zero nitrites, and to keep nitrates as low as possible.

You need to do water changes, and you could do one today even without it effecting the fry, again, as long as the new water is declorinated/temp matched, the fry will be fine. You're already over-feeding if algae wafers are turning the water that colour, and it's a concern about the water quality if it's that colour and there's leftover food breaking down, producing ammonia. Means you need to reduce the feeding (feed the fry frequently, but only tiny amounts and clean up any leftover food as soon as you're able) and increase the tank cleaning and water changes - not leave it for a month!

The conjoined twins are interesting! I wouldn't attempt to "operate" on them personally. They're unlikely to survive either way, but the attempt at an operation could really hurt them, and would be incredibly stressful and painful for them. Why put them through that, you know?

 

[justqu3]

Ohh you have conjoined twins!! I had a pair like that, joined at the egg sac. Unfortunately they were too underdeveloped to survive long and died two days after birth. Here they are!! I called them Deuce

View attachment 165328

Awwwww I love the name! I will just sit back and see what happens. I gave them the name Sun & Shine lol

 

[justqu3]

Oooh interesting! Personally I'd leave them be and see what happens...keep us updated!

I will… I’m too nervous to perform a “surgery” on them anyway. I will keep u guys updated.

 

[justqu3]

Whaaa? Who on earth told you that?? It's nonsense. Water changes are even more essential when you have fry in the tank, and doing water changes won't harm them as long as the replacement water is the same temp as the tank before adding it in, and you've used a water conditioner to handle any chlorine/chloramine in the tapwater.

People who breed fish, including guppies, say to do large frequent water changes. It produces healthier stock that grows faster, and since you're usually feeding more frequently than with adult fish - ideally 3-5 times per day rather than 1-2 for adults, the water can go bad quickly with leftover food and the waste the fish produce from the frequent feeding, and fry are even more vulnerable to ammonia/nitrites/nitrates rising. You want zero ammonia, zero nitrites, and to keep nitrates as low as possible.

You need to do water changes, and you could do one today even without it effecting the fry, again, as long as the new water is declorinated/temp matched, the fry will be fine. You're already over-feeding if algae wafers are turning the water that colour, and it's a concern about the water quality if it's that colour and there's leftover food breaking down, producing ammonia. Means you need to reduce the feeding (feed the fry frequently, but only tiny amounts and clean up any leftover food as soon as you're able) and increase the tank cleaning and water changes - not leave it for a month!

The conjoined twins are interesting! I wouldn't attempt to "operate" on them personally. They're unlikely to survive either way, but the attempt at an operation could really hurt them, and would be incredibly stressful and painful for them. Why put them through that, you know?

OMG!! Thank you so much for this information. I wanted to change it anyway but I was truly scared to lose them. The people that told me not too raise guppies as well. I can’t remember their name off the top of my head but it’s a breeding business. Once I find out, I will post them.

 

[emeraldking]

As already stated, you've got conjoined twins. In most cases, one will become fullgrown and one will remain small. The smaller one will look like some kind of parasite stuck to its twin sibling when they come to adulthood. Usually the bigger one won't be bothered by its parasitic twin and can eat and swim in a normal way. I wouldn't bother separating them.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

As already stated, you've got conjoined twins. In most cases, one will become fullgrown and one will remain small. The smaller one will look like some kind of parasite stuck to its twin sibling when they come to adulthood. Usually the bigger one won't be bothered by its parasitic twin and can eat and swim in a normal way. I wouldn't bother separating them.

Wow, it's amazing that even one would survive! I know human conjoined twins can survive, but they have the help of family and medicine, while usually in the animal kingdom it's a death sentence and they rarely make it to adulthood. Interesting to know! Thanks

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

rom the algae wafers I give the snails. I was planning of cleaning the tank and changing the water today but I can’t now. I’ve been told on several occasions to NOT change the water when newborn fry have arrived, for at least 4 weeks.

OMG!! Thank you so much for this information. I wanted to change it anyway but I was truly scared to lose them. The people that told me not too raise guppies as well. I can’t remember their name off the top of my head but it’s a breeding business. Once I find out, I will post them.

As already stated, you've got conjoined twins. In most cases, one will become fullgrown and one will remain small. The smaller one will look like some kind of parasite stuck to its twin sibling when they come to adulthood. Usually the bigger one won't be bothered by its parasitic twin and can eat and swim in a normal way. I wouldn't bother separating them.

@emeraldking Can you please give your thoughts on this advice he was given? Someone who breeds guppies told him not to change the water for a month if he has newborn fry! Have you ever heard of a livebearer breeder who suggests or practices that? All I've ever heard and read is to increase water changes with fry, not avoid them!

@justqu3 , @emeraldking is our resident livebearer expert - so is @GaryE actually. Have published articles etc, you can see those in emeraldking's signature and profile history. So I would follow their advice when it comes to raising livebearer fry over anything read online or from people who aren't deep in the specialist part of the hobby, you know?

 

[Colin_T]

You can do water changes on fry tanks. I did them on tanks with fry that had only been swimming for 1 or 2 days. You just do small water changes 20-30% (more if needed) and make sure the new water has a similar chemistry (pH, GH & KH) and temperature to the fry tank.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

 

[GaryE]

The only reason I can see someone saying water changes for fry are bad is that you could siphon them up. I have a narrower hose I use with fry, but I change water much more aggressively with fry - 30% changes more than once a week.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The only reason I can see someone saying water changes for fry are bad is that you could siphon them up. I have a narrower hose I use with fry, but I change water much more aggressively with fry - 30% changes more than once a week.

Guppy fry are at least easy to avoid... my shrimplets and pygmy fry, which hide in the substrate and at the base of plants, have to be rescued from the bucket every week! I tell myself it must be like taking a ride on a rollercoaster for them...

 

[emeraldking]

Wow, it's amazing that even one would survive! I know human conjoined twins can survive, but they have the help of family and medicine, while usually in the animal kingdom it's a death sentence and they rarely make it to adulthood. Interesting to know! Thanks

I know what you mean but in guppies, it has found its way by just letting one grow up normally and the other one will remain very small. In the beginning both will look the same but the one that stays smaller will look like some kind a of lump stuck to the body of the other. When it comes to commercial livebearers, this is most seen in guppies and platies. You'll hardly find this phenomenon in mollies and swordtails.

 

[emeraldking]

@emeraldking Can you please give your thoughts on this advice he was given? Someone who breeds guppies told him not to change the water for a month if he has newborn fry! Have you ever heard of a livebearer breeder who suggests or practices that? All I've ever heard and read is to increase water changes with fry, not avoid them!

In fact, there's no hard need to do water changes that often with fry. But it won't hurt either. Fry are way stronger than most people think. Most people think because they're a lot smaller, so they must be much more vulnerable. This is also the reason why I choose younger fish to purchase instead of adult specimens. Younger fish (juveniles and younger fish) adapt much faster to new circumstances (which include water parameters).
But the point is that fry produce more ammonia than bigger fish. But that's because of the fact that they relatively swim faster than bigger ones. And it's more the ammonia that is a waste product coming from their gills while swimming fast. That's the main reason why a regular water change is preferable. Especially when you keep also other fish in the same tank.
Hope this may give you a better insight of the clue...