Stubborn case of ich :(

[Mcostas]

I noticed two spots on one neon 8 days ago. Previously there was some occasional flashing but no spots.

I ordered ich-X, which took a few days to get here. I do weekly or more water changes and bumped it up until meds got here.

By that time there were more spots. I guess I should mention this is a 20 gallon with 18 neon's and a snail. It's planted and has Driftwood. The plants are 2 Amazon swords, Anubis, and stem plants.

The neons seemed so happy and healthy, they've grown considerably since I got them. They are not timid and come up to the glass to look at me.

I thought the spots were declining and since the tank was treated did not expect more spots, yet I got more spots.

I diligently performed water changes, 6 gallons a day, and added ich-X as instructed. I started adding salt the last day or so.

So after a week I decided it wasn't working and switched to super ich cure, salt, and attempted to increase the heat. I actually had been bumping it up heat from the first day but it's been slow, I think I need a better heater, plus the tank is in a room that doesn't get much heat, plus it's were the dog door is so it's cooler (in the winter) than the rest of the house but I have a heater in there now and block the DD at night which helps. I also have a smaller heater at the other end to help.
I don't want to boil my fish but I have the bigger heater up all the way now. I have 4 thermometers to ensure the likelihood of an accurate temp.

I cycled this tank fishless with added ammonia and bacteria, also my substrate is supposed to have bacteria. My tanks rarely have measurable nitrates but I do WC once a week. I credit the plants and substrate for my continually perfect parameters, except my water is a little hard. I just upgraded the filter to an aquaclear 30 to an AQ50. I figured since I have to do the water changes anyway I would be protected against crashes until my new filter gets BB. I also have some I added when preparing the other tank. I know people think it's snake oil but it's worked for me.

Now my one little baby has tattered fins. . They're neons and there's a lot of them which makes it hard to ascertain what is happening with it one particular fish. There is one with the mouth lump but it hasn't spread and it acts fine.

They still eat, other than flashing they aren't exhibiting I'll behavior. I feed them bug bites, flacks, and live food like mosquito larvae, bloodworms, Moira, and brine shrimp.

I've removed the snails and I'm not as concerned with the stem plants, I'm growing them in bins, but I don't want the Amazon swords to die.

I looked at the fish (where I got the driftwood) and there was an entire tank of ich infested glow tetras. I pointed it out and they were going to quarantine the tank, which doesn't matter since all the tanks are connected.

So I don't want to purchase any more fish or plants. I want these ones to live.

I have a 10 gallon with a Betta, and a smaller 2.5 gallon with another Betta that lost a pectoral fin somehow. I treated for fin rot even though his behavior wasn't very bad, he had a harder time swimming and now is back to flaring wiggling and posing. I do his WC every other day.

So now you know my life story, I fuss more over these fish than I do my dogs.

 

[Mcostas]

 

[Mcostas]

I just took these. I did some rearranging to help with the cleaning and treatment.

My bettas have never shown any signs.

 

[Mcostas]

Well it seems like some of the neons are recovering and going to live. They had gone from happy little piranhas that came to the front when I watched them to timid little things that barely ate. I think the constant water changes and meds stressed them. The salt was an especially bad idea, I don't think neons are very salt tolerant.

So I was just going to give up and let them live the rest of their lives out in peace when today I noticed an improvement. I've already attempted to tread some of the worse ones in a hospital tank without success and I culled a couple of the really sick ones.

I think what they have now are secondary infections of fin rot and epitylis in some of them. There are still two super scruffy ones but they are well enough to keep from getting caught and they are still eating. I tried to catch the worst one it just stressed everyone out. I'm hoping they are sick because they are weak and the strong ones will be able to resist, that's why I'm trying not to stress them all.

I can't believe this happened, I do my water changes, I test my parameters which are always perfect. I was about to give up and raise snails or cherry shrimp. When I was into the hobby as a teen I took less care of my tanks and had less problems.

 

[Mcostas]

Welp, after trying various recommendations with no success I tried the seachem cuper (copper) stuff.

I took the mystery snail out first, I hate that it's probably going to harm the cute little bladder snails.

For the first time I see no spots! Even the little one that looked the worst has no spots! I only know it's him (or her) because the fins still look a little raggy.

None of them seem stressed, they are back to being active curious, not hiding . . .
I wish I would have tried that first. Salt and raising the temp not only didn't kill the parasite, it merely stressed the fish, who actually got more spots.

The directions say to half the dose for freshwater, it's about 2 ppm now, the lightest end of the scale.

So now I have to decide how long to treat. I'm worried about the plants. I won't put the mystery snail back for a long time, maybe a month or so after treatment, to be sure. I have most of the driftwood from the other tanks in there. I took a couple pieces of dragon stone out because I was concerned that the holes might not get the treated water where it needs to be.

Here is a poor pic of a parasite on one of the fins of the deceased. I tried to take a video but it's hard to hold a phone up to a microscope ocular. Lol! But the cytoplasm in the parasite was swirling pretty fast.

I can't be sure ich was the only parasite affecting them but the copper should treat the main ones.

 

[Colin_T]

salt doesn't treat white spot.

keep the copper in the tank for 1 week after all the white spots have gone from the fish.

after you have finished treatment, do a 75% water change and gravel clean every day for a week. clean the filter too. then it should be safe for the snail to go back in.

copper will kill all external protozoan parasites so white spot, costia, chilodonella, etc should all be dead now

 

[Mcostas]

I also tried 2 different ich meds with malichite green and formalin but neither worked.

In the olden days when I had a few aquariums I don't remember having this much trouble getting rid of ich, maybe I have a poor memory but it seemed pretty resistant to everything.

I'm using the lowest therapeutic dose according to the website.

I'm a little concerned about the driftwood having residual copper. I'm still seeing living little bladder snails. I try to rescue the ones I can catch and put them in my plant bin.

 

[Colin_T]

white spot has become more resistant to medications, in particular malachite green because it is used in most white spot remedies.

there are also strains of white spot that go dormant when no fish are in the tank and re-appear when they detect chemicals from fish in the water.

but they haven't developed any resistance to copper so it is my go to as a last resort

 

[Mcostas]

Well my shiney little babies are back to normal! . They are shoaling, they are back to eating like pigs, they come to the front of the tank and look at me, they swim all over the tank like they are comfortable, curious and healthy and I haven't seen them flash in days.

I'm now in the copper removal stage. I'm using charcoal at the moment but have the other stuff just for copper ordered. Did a small water change but that was mostly to get up the shedding hornwort. Not all the hornwort shedded needles, but it seems like I'm always swapping out a dying hornwort for a fresh one. I don't think the copper caused it but who knows. I'm going to move away from hornwort I think.

It's amazing how fast the cupramine worked and how little it affected things in the tank, it didn't even kill the little bladder snails, at least not all of them. I followed the directions and used the lowest therapeutic dose.

It puzzles me how people go to any length to not only not use meds when meds are needed, but jump right to the salt like it's a magic elixir. They got so much worse with the salt and I used the lowest amount recommended for tetras.

I euthanized 4 or 5 that probably would have lived had I went for the copper first. There was almost one more, he wasn't looking too well but I got my order in time, I can't even tell which one it was now.

My little koi betta with cloudy eye seems to be getting better too. And the one with fin injury seems to be growing his pectoral fin back! I'm cycling a 5 gallon for him, I put him in a 2.5 gallon because he couldn't swim well. He never seemed to like the 10, I think the 5 will be fine though.

I switched the Betta pellets to Hikari ones, I wonder if that made a difference? They are smaller than what they were getting and easier for them to eat. That was my reason for switching but I think they might be more nutritious. I usually feed live food too but it's gotten too chilly for my mosquito basins to produce.

I'm just glad they are doing well, I got them because watching fish is relaxing, but not when they are sick and dying.

 

[Colin_T]

Salt treats some external protozoan parasites (Costia, Chilodonella, Trichodina), and a few other types of organisms related to them. But it doesn't do anything for white spot.

The problem is everyone thinks that because white spot is a protozoan parasite, it will be treated with salt because other protozoa are treated with salt. Unfortunately that doesn't work because white spot is found in fresh, brackish and salt water environments.

Copper is not normally the go to for white spot because people have concerns about its safety with all aquatic life. However, copper kills all sorts of things including bacteria and viruses and they haven't developed a resistance to it. You do have to be careful with copper because you can wipe out a tank. But if used correctly it is quite good at treating things.

Malachite Green is a really old fashioned drug that has been mis-used for decades. It's carcinogenic and in my opinion, is an awful drug.

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I'm now in the copper removal stage. I'm using charcoal at the moment but have the other stuff just for copper ordered.

I don't know of any special substances that remove copper besides carbon. If someone is selling you a "special copper removing substance" at an inflated price, they might be ripping you off.

The best way to remove copper is with a couple of huge water changes, gravel cleaning the substrate, cleaning the filter. Then after a couple of days of water changes and gravel cleans, add some activated carbon to the filter. Keep doing daily water changes and gravel cleans for a week. Then remove the carbon and throw it away. There shouldn't be any copper left in the tank after that.

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Hornwort can die if there is a sudden change in water temperature or chemistry (pH, GH, KH), or a sudden ammonia, nitrite or nitrate spike.

Copper can affect plants but it isn't common and you usually need a combination of copper and another stress factor to harm them.

 

[Mcostas]

I'm doing some water changes but also using "cuprasorb" made by the same company that makes cupramine (seachem)

The cupramine is supposed to be better because it stays in solution instead of binding to the substrate and wood and stuff. I tested and confirmed that the level stayed the same.

The resin that removes it can be "recharged" but it's not very expensive so I'm just going to discard it when I'm done. I might get another pack to keep on hand if God forbid I get another case of ich.