Stocking suggestions please :)

[Mystic Skye]

Hi! I have a 55 gal bow front cycled tank and a 35 gal long cycled tank. In the 55 I have a dwarf sunset rainbow, Boesmani Rainbow, Rainbow shark, common Pleco (will go into a bigger tank eventually), and clown Pleco. Was wondering if I would be able to add any schooling fish to this tank for a little colour? Kh is about 180, ph is 7.5, temp is 76F, and I do a 25-30% water change weekly. We had 5 Cories in it as well but they are now in the black Moor tank (35 gal same parameters but 72F) with only one black moor. Wondering if I can put anything else in this tank also? (This tank belongs to my 2 year old who feeds them and helps clean twice a week, she said her goldfish needs a friend lol)

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF.

There are a few issues here, so I'll start with the last mentioned, the Black Moor which I assume is the "goldfish" black moor. This is a cooler water species, better at room temperature but no warmer. Depending upon the room temperature (day and especially night), this probably won't work for the cories. Generally, mixing tropicals and goldfish is not advisable. I am not that knowledgeable on goldfish, so I will leave it to those members who are to comment on tank size/number of moors.

Turning to the 55g, the rainbowfish are shoaling fish so you should have a small group of each species of rainbowfish. The Boesmani Rainbowfish (Melanotaenia boesemani) should have at least six, but males will be more colourful with a few more. As you have a 4-foot 55g tank, I would recommend a group of 8-9.

The dwarf sunset rainbow I will assume is the species Melanotaenia parva, also needs a group similar to the above.

Both of these are active swimmers, so this is going to pretty much fill the tank space. Substrate fish are the only addition possible, and with the Red Tail Shark you have filled this. This fish as it matures (and it will live for 15 years with the proper care) can become very nasty, especially to other substrate level fish. If you keep this fish, I would just add the rainbows and leave it at that. Though the cories would be better in this tank, if the RTS tolerates them. You could/should add more cories too, the larger their shoal the happier and healthier they will be. But the RTS might have to go, depending upon his temperament.

I would increase you volume of water changes to about half the tank's volume once weekly (at one time, not spread out).

Byron.

 

[Mystic Skye]

Thank you for your reply. I keep the Moor tank at 72 with a small heater and the Cories seem to be happy in there, I target feed them and have spaces blocked off for them to rest where the Moor can't get into. These Cories started off in there then moved to the 55 after it was cycled but I had an Opaline Gourami which nipped their dorsal fins so they all went back to the small tank until I was able to find a more suitable home for the Gourami. Needless to say the poor Cories were stressed and I didn't want to stress them again by moving them back. They are playing again in the bubbles, swimming all over and cleaning the bottom of the tank well.

Anyhow, once I rehomed the Gourami I did a lot of research and found that rainbows do well with the Rainbow shark but the LFS only had the Boesman and Sunset in a tank of Gouramis so I bought them both. They are sticking together in the tank and sure cover a lot of area! The shark doesn't spook anymore and the plecos just Pleco lol. I guess I should have mentioned that my tank is a corner bow front so I'm not sure if that allows for such a large school of rainbows? I have plenty of driftwood on the bottom, a floating plant and a bushy plant that covers most of the back corner leaving the front empty for swim space.

I will do more water changes to keep them all happy

 

[Mystic Skye]

Sorry, just reread the water change, 50% once/week. Got it!

 

[Byron]

Anyhow, once I rehomed the Gourami I did a lot of research and found that rainbows do well with the Rainbow shark but the LFS only had the Boesman and Sunset in a tank of Gouramis so I bought them both. They are sticking together in the tank and sure cover a lot of area! The shark doesn't spook anymore and the plecos just Pleco lol. I guess I should have mentioned that my tank is a corner bow front so I'm not sure if that allows for such a large school of rainbows?

All I can say is, if you want your fish to be healthy and at their best, you must have a group of the species (the rainbowfish species). Keeping them individually, meaning one of the species, no matter how many other species, is inhumane treatment (put bluntly). Read the green citation in my signature block. Dr. Loiselle is a recognized authority on aquarium fish.

Now, having been blunt, in fairness I will explain the reason as most of us like to understand the "why." Shoaling fish have evolved over thousands of years to live in a very specific environment. "Environment" includes water parameters, habitat features (wood, rock, plants, substrate, whichever of these may apply), other species, and numbers of the individual species. These requirements are programmed into the DNA of the species. They are essential to avoid extra stress, and stress is the cause of 95% of all fish disease and health problems.

Without sufficient numbers in the species group, the fish will be stressed. These numbers add security to the individual fish. But often there is more to it. Interaction between the individuals can be significant, there may be hierarchies, and of course there is spawning.

As for adequate tank space for the two groups...if this were an issue, then obviously one of the species must be re-homed so there can be sufficient of the other to be healthy. I don't know the dimensions of the 55g, but 55 gallons is sufficient water space, provided there is sufficient length for swimming. Four feet would be preferable, but if the tank is no less than 3 feet length this could work. It is up to you how you look after your fish, but ignoring their basic inherent needs is not going to work, and it is cruel to the fish.

Byron.

 

[j0!Nt]

Byron, I know you definitely know your stuff. I am not arguing, nor looking for some sort of confrontation.

I see this everywhere about goldfish being 'cold water' fish. I've wondered if people assume because they can survive in colder water that they are, in fact, a cold water fish?

Despite my recent learnings of some things, it does not dispute the following:

I've owned fancy tailed gold fish my entire fish "career". We started in 1999 and ran til we moved back home in 2008. Had a little break until we started up the 55g again in 2012. And then started the other 55g, and a 33g long recently.
I have ALWAYS had corys in the tank with goldfish. I have NEVER run a fish tank without a heater. My current 55g fancy's are in 27/28 C - always have been. I have never lost a fish, 100% honesty. I do see on some of the FB groups I am in, I am not the only one who runs a heater w/ goldfish.

Somehow we are anomalies lol? I wouldn't put money on that For me, this has been done in two different cities in Canada ( as you know I think ) as well, and I just don't understand why to NOT run a heater period? Is cold water considered for under certain temps?

Again, I know you know your stuff. I have actually read A LOT of your posts and I have great, great respect for your knowledge and your ability to help everyone here. I just need a little insight / steering as to where this information is true. Naturally, you are the one to ask

 

[Byron]

It may be off topic for the OP's thread, but as another member has asked about goldfish and tropicals and this was in the OP's initial post, I will respond from my understanding. Let me begin by repeating that I am not experienced with goldfish, but my research over many years has clearly made some distinctions between goldfish and tropical fish.

First I must ask that you give serious consideration to the point made in the blue citation in my signature block. The fact that any one of us tries this or that does not mean it is wise, and it most assuredly does not mean that the fish are not being detrimentally affected just because they don't turn belly up. None of us can possibly know what is occurring in the fish's mind or physiology when we step outside the norm as the fish expects it to be. Each species has in their DNA the inherent print for life, and it is reckless thinking to assume we can ignore all this without some repercusions.

No reliable source has ever, to my knowledge, recommended combining goldfish and tropical fish, and quite the opposite. There are several reasons. Temperature differences, food differences (goldfish and tropical fish having differing food requirements), temperament differences, different disease tolerances, and compatibility issues. I will deal primarily with temperature, since it was specifically mentioned in post #6 and there are clear midunderstandings.

Water temperature drives a fish's metabolism, so it is extremely important. Goldfish are sub tropical temperature fish (which may be a better term than "cold water"), and their physiology operates best in such temperatures. I will cite some passages on the effects on all fish of increasing temperature, taken from The Manual of Fish Health authored by four of the most qualified ichthyologists in the field, since I couldn't possibly say it better.

Fish are ectothermic, which means that they have little ability to physiologically maintain a constant body temperature; in most fish it is usually the same as the temperature of the surrounding water. In general, fish species are loosely divided in terms of temperature range into warmwater species from the tropics that live at temperatures over 25C (75F) and coldwater species from high latitudes where seasonal averages are well below that level. ...

As we have seen, it is important to maintain the temperature of the water within the natural range of the species being kept as stable as possible. ...

Increasing temperature results firstly in a vicious spiral of increasing metabolic rate, and therefore a growing demand for oxygen, in the face of a falling oxygen content of the water (since rising temperature reduces the quantity of dissolved oxygen that water can hold in solution). Physiologically, the oxygen deficit resulting from high temperatures causes an increased production of adrenalin and a faster heart rate. The problem is exacerbated by a parallel reduction in the blood's oxygen transporting capacity. Behavioural changes noted in fish during high temperature thermal stress include heightened activity, a loss of equilibrium and increasing ventilation rates.

High temperatures cause denaturing of body proteins and enzymes, and cells damaged by this process produce toxic metabolites. High temperatures also raise the inherent toxicity of certain substances, most notably heavy metals and ammonia. And osmoregulatory problems occur at high temperatures because lipids change state in cell membranes, causing an increase in the permeability of the cells. This is especially crucial in the gills.

Under extreme thermal stress, a fish slips into a coma as the central nervous system shuts down. The maximum temperature a fish can survive depends on the species, the temperature to which it is normally acclimatized, the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water and the level of toxins present.​

The temperature of 27/28 C mentioned in post #6 is not only too high for goldfish (so far as I am aware, I will accept correction from a reliable source), it is even too high for most species of Corydoras. There are some that can manage very well at this warmth, but not all of them. Again, they probably won't die rapidly (though some might), but long-term their physiology is being affected and aside from stress this causes serious health issues and inevitably a less than normal life span.

Byron.

 

[flchamp89]

27/28c is too hot for most period. Recommended temps of fish keep increasing it seems. 30 yrs ago we kept tanks cooler. Remember the majority of your plants if you have them will appreciate it as well.

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