Stocking Suggestions/assistance 125 Gallon

[holidayinn]

hi all

I've got a 125 gallon 5 foot long tank. it has been cycled with ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and waterchanges weekly to get rid off nitrates. Currently there are 4 4inch clown loaches and a common pleco. I plan to return the plec to the lfs at some stage as it is a massive waste producer even at the 3 inches it is now. I also plan to add another 2 clown loaches to the tank. I do realise they grow quite big but this process takes a long time. Thats all the fish currently in the tank.

my next move will be to purchase 3-4 silver dollars, these will act as dither fish, and if i add them first should grow to a good size.

Then, this is where i get stuck. I know that i want south/central american cichlids. i know that they all have different levels of aggression and a lot depends on the fishes individual personality.

these are the fish i'm debating over, i plan to stock them all as juvies...and only 1 of each type of fish:

Oscar- really like the personality these fish have and this will be the largest fish in the tank..the only thing that is putting me off is the amount of waste they produce. Very keen to get an oscar, but would like some tankmates, not hybrids tho.

green Terror - Love the shape and look of this fish, although have heard it is aggressive. Can they get along with oscars? Chances of success?

jack Dempsey - Have heard that they can be shy fish and hide quite a lot, is this true? I dont want fish that hide all the time, but surely a JD would be active? Would the electric blue dempsey be less/more aggresive; suitable for an oscar tankmate?

Firemouth - bottom dwelling fish - will they clash with loaches? have heard they can be troublemakers..is this true?

Convict - probably the smallest fish i'm looking at but meant to have an awesome personality and can hold its own if its not too small...

salvini - have heard these are aggressive fish, that hide the majority of time and can be skittish..is this true?

Severum - more peaceful. could a severum cope with more aggressive cichlids e.g. convicts, JDs, GTs?

There are other fish that i'm considering but dont know much about them yet e.g. senegal birchirs, geophagus (is this a name for a collection of fish?), i do recall another couple of fish i was thinking about, but i cant remember now

In summary, i want an oscar (largest fish) with tankmates...what would you suggest?

Are any of these fish skittish? Are any of these fish naturally hiders?

Your opinions/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Davo86]

Hi holidayinn

well you have plenty of options, but I would make sure your clowns are a decent size before you consider adding any of the larger cichlids as these will very quickly outgrow the clowns and may see them as food. None of the fish you've mentioned are usually skittish and if put together as Juveniles you will have the best possible chance of having a calm tank

With 6 clown loach and 4 silver dollars already I would personally then go for maybe 3 cichlids such as an Oscar, Severum and Firemouth or maybe an Oscar, JD/BJD and Convict

What filtration do you have on the tank?

 

[ox5477]

I agree with Davo's suggestion to cut back on the number of cichlids. I dont know if you wanted all of them in there... but I would recommend it. And dont worry about size restrictions for the clown loaches, they will grow to their max size and live perfectly fine in that tank for life. If you get two or three more sd's you wont be dissappointed, they will be more calm having a larger shoal, plus when they get bigger, will add alot of movement and shimmer.

I personally like Davo's second suggestion just cause I'm a huge JD fan. In my 125G US I have an adult Male JD(~8"), 6 silver dollars (~3-3.5" round), 6 giant danios, a common pleco, and two juve sevs (~3.5").

This is max stocking IMO, as I go for lighter stockings, but also, most of these fish have a good amount of growing to do, I expect the sd's to get atleast another 1.5-2" in the next 6 months, and the sevs to get to about 5-6" in the next 3 months or so. And the pleco is still growing, I believe anywhere from 10-12" right now and still growing.

Ox

 

[holidayinn]

Thanks for you replies Ox and Davo

filtration - a big eheim cannister filter, not sure which model...and two fluval 4+s

not planning to put all the cichlids in there, but a selection of 3 like you have advised...

i'm thinking of adding the oscar last as its the quickest grower and add the 5-6 SD'd this week to give them and the CLs a chance to grow a lil more...also gives me a lil time to make sure of stocking and with the SDs at least there will be sum activity in the tank...

if adding as juvies, how long does that give me? e.g. if i was to add the JD, how long would i have left to add the oscar?...for example if it was the opposite way round i would guess i have about 3-4 months of an oscar being at a juvie stage/size to put the JDs in and gain the benefits of adding them as juvies

so a GT would prob be a bad idea in that sooner or later it will be the most aggressive?

how about geophagus? are there many types of these fish?

i like the look of jd's but i have been browsing the forums and read a few stories of them hiding the majority of the time...from what u say Ox I doubt this is their normal behaviour and maybe due to water parameters and tankmates instead...last thing i want is fish that hide majority of the time

thanks

holidayinn

 

[Davo86]

I would agree that a GT may be a bad idea, IMO more often than not these turn out to be troublemakers, very nice fish though,
I'm not sure really how you've come to the conclusion of JD's being shy fish, IME they have always been quite outgoing and even boistrous fish

I would be giving the clowns and SDs about a month to become established in the tank before adding the 3 similar sized juvie cichlids at the same time, so no one cichlid can establish too large a territory

Geophagus is a genus of a selection of cichlids, most get quite large (around a foot) but they are not aggressive and should really be kept in small groups.
You may be able to do an Oscar and say 3 Geophagus but it would all depend on the temperament of the oscar

 

[holidayinn]

thanks Davo

i would have liked a red devil, but i know that none of teh fish will stand a chance against that in the L/T...i dont want the terror because of its aggressiveness but because of its look...so i think i'll just settle for a nice looking fish which isnt as likely to cause me problems further down the road...it seems so easy jus to go to ur lfs and buy what u want, but i have seen on these forums and others the problems that can be caused further down the line with dodgy stocking...for example on other forums someone will keep a red devil, GTs, oscars, midas etc and say no problems so far..but then a post later u find out they're all juvies not fully grown

i dont have a hospital tank but think it may be best in the L/T to invest in one, i have a 40 gallon but thats got my tropical fish in it...what size hospital tank (for medicinal purposes) would you suggest for an oscar? I wouldnt want to relocate any fish in there as 2 tanks is enough for me at this stage but think that it would be wise to have a contingency plan in case something unexpected occurs

it was on another forum i heard of JD's being shy and there were a lot of posts describing this behaviour. I've been searching many forums last few weeks for ideas and advice, this particular forum has users who have a habit of overstocking and maybe dont maintain their tanks as well as they should..this may be the reason for the behaviour...but from what you and Ox have said, i dont think hiding is natural behaviour

think i may have to leave the geophagus if they need to be kept in groups as id quite like different looking fish from each other, thanks again

 

[ox5477]

A QT/Hospital tank would an excellent idea.... never seems like an important idea until the day you need one.... bext to have a small filter (nig enough for whatever size QT tank you get) running on the 125 for the day when you may need the QT tank so you have media up and running. Also you could just put some extra media in one of your canisters instead of running a whole seperate filter and then take some media out when you need it, but these canisters are tight on space as it is so fitting more in would be tough... so I just say run the extra filter.... not gonna break the bank on utilities.

I always find the talk about JD's behavior an interesting one... My JD tends to shy away when I approach the tank but can be down right aggressive towards guests in my home. Also, he is very territorial when it comes to the pleco and the sevs. He has started to nitce the sevs as they have grown and is beggining to see them as a threat so will chase them away from his driftwood. He will always voraciously nip at the pleco if it comes under or near his driftwood and will not stop until the pleco swims back to its driftwood... I would assume the reason he cowers when I am near is he prob sees me as the "dominant fish" and the food bearer so is obliged to show respect. Plus I think its pretty funny that he is afraid of the khuli loaches that are in the tank as well. When I upgraded, I expected them to be eaten within a few days... but they have grown fatter and happier than ever believe it or not... and if they wriggle under his driftwood he will swim out and just stare back until the khuli leaves and then will hurriedly swim back and fan the gravel and move things around, "cleaning up after the khuli" ha

anyways... this is turning into a novel... I have heard people say they're JD is the most aggressive fish they have ever owned and others say they are pussycats. I would say mine is in the middle, he is subserviant to me but he has almost killed a former roommate (another JD when they were both about 4 months old) and a female which I stupidly thought he would like to see after about 8 months.... this was before I learned about introductions and established territories. And even after this, he is scared of the little khuli's haha

Ox

 

[england]

you have seen it on the forums now meet someone who has done it, had my oscars beaten nearly to death, a green terror killed and a female jack dempsey attacked all by a vieja bifa, then after that my jag turned nasty but got to him just in time before oscars suffered again.....

so as you can guess now my oscar tank<150us>contains only my two oscars<as only cichlids> which seem to have paired up<hopefully> well its been two years now and they stick together like glue ..other occupants consists of three tinfoil barbs, two silver sharks, one gibbicep plec, one common plec, one hoplo catfish, one senegal birchir..........

twice weekly 250 litre waterchanges, running a fluval fx5 ,external 403 fluval #2 and 1 internal tetratec 1000....

heating hydor hydromatic 300watts #2...tank temp 26c...

3 lights 1 dayglo /1 powerglo /1 marine blue...

 

[ammoniator]

I agree with Davo's suggestion to cut back on the number of cichlids. I dont know if you wanted all of them in there... but I would recommend it. And dont worry about size restrictions for the clown loaches, they will grow to their max size and live perfectly fine in that tank for life. If you get two or three more sd's you wont be dissappointed, they will be more calm having a larger shoal, plus when they get bigger, will add alot of movement and shimmer.

I personally like Davo's second suggestion just cause I'm a huge JD fan. In my 125G US I have an adult Male JD(~8"), 6 silver dollars (~3-3.5" round), 6 giant danios, a common pleco, and two juve sevs (~3.5").

This is max stocking IMO, as I go for lighter stockings, but also, most of these fish have a good amount of growing to do, I expect the sd's to get atleast another 1.5-2" in the next 6 months, and the sevs to get to about 5-6" in the next 3 months or so. And the pleco is still growing, I believe anywhere from 10-12" right now and still growing.

Ox

Hi Ox,

im a newbie really, although im learning the fast way due to this thread

but looking at your above post it seems to make even less sense to me the advice ive been given...

by my calcs you have 50"+ of fish in your 125 gallon tank..and they'll grow to ove 60" of fish eventually- maybe 70". Another member- Ace of Spades is advising no more than 1 oscar in a 75gallon tank. (12-16" in size)

I have currently about 23" of fish in a 63gallon tank and the concensus from that thread is that it is massively overstocked. I can understand that it may be in terms of territory and aggression due to the types i have, but i cant see much fun in having a $1500+ setup for 1 fish....

can you please comment by reading that thread?

Cheers,
Tim

 

[davidblackson]

i would go with convicts and a jd probly your best bet for peace although if you get the convicts to little they will be oscars dinner

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Hi Ox,

im a newbie really, although im learning the fast way due to this thread

but looking at your above post it seems to make even less sense to me the advice ive been given...

by my calcs you have 50"+ of fish in your 125 gallon tank..and they'll grow to ove 60" of fish eventually- maybe 70". Another member- Ace of Spades is advising no more than 1 oscar in a 75gallon tank. (12-16" in size)

I have currently about 23" of fish in a 63gallon tank and the concensus from that thread is that it is massively overstocked. I can understand that it may be in terms of territory and aggression due to the types i have, but i cant see much fun in having a $1500+ setup for 1 fish....

can you please comment by reading that thread?

Cheers,
Tim

Hi Tim,

When it comes to big fish you need to stop thinking in inches. It's much more to do with the requirements of the individual fish.

I know the " per gallon rule is nice and easy to understand so often newbies will kind of cling on to it but it really does not apply at all for the fish that you have so you need to try to let go of that.

Oscars are enormous waste producers, they will make much more waste than other cichlids of an equivalent size, so you can't compare the size tank needed to support them to that needed to support other fish of the same size.

I know it's all quite confusing, when it comes to big fish it's really a case of knowing a lot about each species and being able to make judgement calls. There's no easy rule we can give you to work it all out. You'll see on here even amongst the most knowledgable/experienced members there are disagreements in what will/won't work.

But OX, by all means do read and comment on the thread, you've much more experience with big cichlids than me and I'm sure your contribution would be valued as ever.

 

[holidayinn]

Thanks Ox, what size hospital tank would u think be suitable for an oscar? Thanks for the info bout JD too, it must just depend on the fishes individual personality..thinking about one of those blue JDs, would they be suitable? I will be purchasing as juvies so at least they’ll have a chance of growing into their surroundings and build confidence

Thanks Nelly for your insight, would be horrible if I had to deal with the issues that you have gone through…I don’t mind mild aggression (not sure what that really means) but bullying and stressing leading to death is not an issue I really want to have to deal with, but know it can happen..i used to have an oscar in the 37 gallon (came with the tank). It used to have to do a 3point turn manouevre to turn around, that’s why I got the bigger tank as I knew I wanted big fish and not just one.

Tim, from what I’ve read I would say that for a 66 gallon tank you are overstocked. The absolute minimum I have heard for an oscar is 55 gallons then 25 gallons thereafter for each oscar. The inches per fish guidelines are mainly for smaller community fish and for newbies. More experienced fishkeepers will do the 50% waterchanges 2/3 times a week and over-filtrate their tanks whereas many newbies wont go the full hog…personally I used to shy away from waterchanges this was due to using a 10 litre bucket and mixing cold water with boiled kettle water…now I use a hosepipe lol and it’s a lot quicker. Also I would think about the footprint of the tank and the number of territorial fish you have in the tank

Thanks DavidBlackson, but have heard more then one convict can lead to a lot of aggression especially if there’s a breeding pair…tho I am thinking of possible a oscar, sev, jd and con…maybe scrap the con, but might start off with it….The only fish id change would be the sev…but I’ll visit the lfs store and see what they look like in person

How about chocolate cichlids, blue acaras, festivums? Are there any pikes suitable for this size tank? Would they be better choices then the sev?

I am also running into a few probs with my loaches..they are hiding all the time and not eating...this mayeb due to them munching on the huge number of snails in the tank...but it also seem as tho they are scared to come out...i'm gna get some SD's tonight as i think that they are scared because they're not sure whether its safe to come out or not (i moved em from the 37 to the 125 on sunday) but they do come out when its dark

 

[ox5477]

ammoniator:

Miss Wiggle is 100% right... said exactly what I would say.... yes, there are aggression and territory issues to consider when looking into to large, aggressive fish, and with very messy fish like oscars, extra water volume is always a good idea to dilute wastes to keep everybody healthy.... it doesnt take much extra waste to cause problems.... I had a busy weekend about a month ago and didnt get to my weekly water change and a day or so right before the next weekend, one of my sd's got a touch of fungus.... most likely from water quality, so with large fish, the two best things to look at is, how much space does this need and how much waste will it produce.... if you can satisfy these two requirements, usually... and I do mean usually.... the tank will work out fine.

holidayinn:

For a QT, depending on how long they would need to be in there, I would say a a 40G breeder would be good for the o's life.... This is wider so can accomidate a larger fish... I would still do a wc every other day atleast if I had to keep an o in atank this size for any extended time, even with a fully cycled filter running on it

EBJD (Electric Blue Jack Dempsey's) are a beautiful fish but there a couple difference between its more common cousin, the JD. It tends to be a much more mellow fish, ie not as territorial or aggressive towards other of it's species.... it still will defend territory but it is not known as being as "harcore" as the reg JD.... that said, it has more fo a chance to get bullied, so keep an eye on sto cking as they grow so he doesn't get picked on excessively. Also for the EBJD, because of being a special genetic mutation of the JD, they can have a weaker immune system, ie they sick easier and when they get sick, it is harder to fight off the illness, even with rapid and proper treatment... another reason you wouldnt want them to get picked on... as if an open wound occurs, then it will be harder for the EBJD to heal.... food for thought to, if you look into buying one.... don't pay over $25 for a single specimen.... usually they are sold for around $20-25 due to the long process in producing a partial batch of EBJD's, though I have seen specimens, that are still juve's trying to be sold for $40+.... believe me, there are plenty of beautiful EBJD specimens that are less than that, so just dont buy the first one and bite the bullet on price.

Tim, from what I’ve read I would say that for a 66 gallon tank you are overstocked. The absolute minimum I have heard for an oscar is 55 gallons then 25 gallons thereafter for each oscar

This is ok for tank requirements, really I say a 75G US is min because it gives the oscar 18" of depth to turn and swim, where the 55G US is only 12" deep. And for 25G per o after that, I would say def not... there are plenty of TFF members who have had multiple o's in 90G US and 150G US tanks and both have ended badly... with o's the best choice is either one o per tank (unless the tank is massive, talking 1000G+, so they have enough space to never have to see eachother) or you buy 6 young oscars and allow a pair to form. If you do get a pair, the others should be rehomed immediatly as the pair will single out and attack the other oscars. This process of finding a pair requires a very large tank as well, atleast 300G at a min as it usually takes a year or two for a true pair to form in o's, so you need lots of the space for the o's to live that year, remember, most cichlids do the majority of their growing in the first year, so by the end of the first year, you could be looking at 6 8-10" fish a single tank...

I am also running into a few probs with my loaches..they are hiding all the time and not eating...this mayeb due to them munching on the huge number of snails in the tank...but it also seem as tho they are scared to come out...i'm gna get some SD's tonight as i think that they are scared because they're not sure whether its safe to come out or not (i moved em from the 37 to the 125 on sunday) but they do come out when its dark

This is due to the move, just gotta give em some time to explore.... this is like moving from a pond to the ocean for them, they dont know whats out there so they need to feel things out. They will come around over the next week or two as they grow bolder and realize there are no big meanies out there to eat.

Ox

 

[holidayinn]

Thanks Ox, had a feeling you would probably suggest something as big as that..Hopefully, I wont need it at all but at least not for the first few months or so after adding them as juvies, so I think I’ll just keep an eye on ebay and pick up a cheap one when I can…Thanks for the great info on the EBJD, think I’ll have to mull it over but at this time leaning towards a normal JD

Re – clowns. I do hope that’s all it is, I’m definitely going to buy 2 more so that they’ll have more confidence as a group

I completely agree that 25G for each additional oscar isn’t enough, and an oscar shouldnt be expeted to live its life in a tank that isn’t at least 18 inches wide

I’ll prob be back with more questions...thanks peeps

 

[duncs]

EBJD (Electric Blue Jack Dempsey's) are a beautiful fish but there a couple difference between its more common cousin, the JD. It tends to be a much more mellow fish, ie not as territorial or aggressive towards other of it's species.... it still will defend territory but it is not known as being as "harcore" as the reg JD.... that said, it has more fo a chance to get bullied, so keep an eye on sto cking as they grow so he doesn't get picked on excessively. Also for the EBJD, because of being a special genetic mutation of the JD, they can have a weaker immune system, ie they sick easier and when they get sick, it is harder to fight off the illness, even with rapid and proper treatment... another reason you wouldnt want them to get picked on... as if an open wound occurs, then it will be harder for the EBJD to heal.... food for thought to, if you look into buying one.... don't pay over $25 for a single specimen.... usually they are sold for around $20-25 due to the long process in producing a partial batch of EBJD's, though I have seen specimens, that are still juve's trying to be sold for $40+.... believe me, there are plenty of beautiful EBJD specimens that are less than that, so just dont buy the first one and bite the bullet on price.

Hi mate.

Do you have any evidence to support your theory about the EBJDs having a weaker immune system?

From the research I've done, it would appear that the EBJDs have a problem with their immune system in the first few months of their lives which is the reason they're never seen in the wild - they're simply can't survive the growth phase where regular JDs can. Most of the specimens seen in shops have surpassed this difficult phase and thus are no more difficult to keep than regular JDs - in fact, with aggression taken in to account, they're probably easier to keep.

I currently have six, have had them from 2" TL. The biggest is just shy of 5" total length.. I haven't had a single problem with them. They certainly aren't shy either.