Stocking recommendations?

[vince82]

I am looking for recommendations for this 60G breeder tank. Filter is a SunSun canister, water is full RO (because my well sucks) plus equilibrium and a bit of extra calcium chloride because I found my substrate (which is sand-capped top soil) is absorbing KH.Current parameters: PH 7, KH 4, GH 8, Ammonia 0, No2 0, No3 10ppm. Co2 1 bubble/second.
Current population is 5 Julii corys and a handful of cory babies, bunch of pond snails.
I am thinking my total population could be 8-10 corys, 8-10 otocynclus, 20 single species tetras (cardinals? rummy nose? have not decided), unlimited neocaridina (currently setting up a separate tank to breed them) and then.. what?
Blue acaras? Boliviam rams? A betta sorority? What would you do?

The internal filter in the pic is not for this tank, I put it in here to help cycle the next tank faster.

 

[sharkweek178]

Blue acaras? Boliviam rams? A betta sorority? What would you do?


Isn't it going to be either or with these fish and the neocaridina?

 

[vince82]

Blue acaras? Boliviam rams? A betta sorority? What would you do?


Isn't it going to be either or with these fish and the neocaridina?

I had neocaridinas in a heavily planted 40 gallons years ago, with 3 bolivian rams (2F 1 M) and some neons and the shrimp population EXPLODED, I stopped counting at 150 when I took them out from the tank to move. Hopefully that is what I am trying to reproduce (pun intended). I will keep the shrimp colony reproducing in a separate tank to make sure they don't dwindle, adding the less nice specimens to this tank.
Never got those rams to spawn successfully though.

 

[seangee]

I am thinking my total population could be 8-10 corys, 8-10 otocynclus, 20 single species tetras (cardinals? rummy nose? have not decided), unlimited neocaridina (currently setting up a separate tank to breed them) and then.. what?... What would you do?

Since you asked what I would do - its more of the same and then stop. Actually I have already done it
To avoid repeating what I posted a few minutes ago : https://www.fishforums.net/threads/the-prisons-we-keep.488281/#post-4270300

 

[vince82]

Since you asked what I would do - its more of the same and then stop. Actually I have already done it
To avoid repeating what I posted a few minutes ago : https://www.fishforums.net/threads/the-prisons-we-keep.488281/#post-4270300

I actually don't disagree with you. But it is quite a large tank and the 2 populations of otos and corys don't interact much with either each other or the tetras.
And with the shrimp? I am actually fine if some fry get eaten by the tetras or other threats. It is an ecosystem after all.
But to get those tetras to school and not just meander around my tank I need something that introduces a little bit of risk. Not something that will actually eat them, but something that will convince them to school. Small cichlids are great for that (not so much the bettas idea, that just looks good but it's probably the less responsible choice).

And bioload wise, I think that is an adequate amount of fish per volume of water.
The "cm per liter" rule is very rudimental.. More correct way to think about it is how much you feed per liter, because that is the amount of nutrients plant and filter have to deal with. If, once plants are grown to their full size, if over a month you have removed from the tank an amount of plant cutting roughly about as much as what you fed, then that is a good balance.

 

[Byron]

But to get those tetras to school and not just meander around my tank I need something that introduces a little bit of risk. Not something that will actually eat them, but something that will convince them to school. Small cichlids are great for that (not so much the bettas idea, that just looks good but it's probably the less responsible choice).

This is without question the wrong approach to keeping fish. When shoaling fish are stressed they tighten the group--not otherwise. So this means deliberately causing stress to the fish. No aquarist should ever take that road. It is inhumane.

Dither fish are not the same thing. And the idea of dither fish is to cause less stress to the cichlids. That is positive.

Over 90% of all the disease issues in our aquarium fish are directly due to stress. The pathogen has to be present, but most of the fish easily deal with this, but not under stress which weakens their immune system.

And bioload wise, I think that is an adequate amount of fish per volume of water.
The "cm per liter" rule is very rudimental.. More correct way to think about it is how much you feed per liter, because that is the amount of nutrients plant and filter have to deal with. If, once plants are grown to their full size, if over a month you have removed from the tank an amount of plant cutting roughly about as much as what you fed, then that is a good balance.

On this, I would note that the issue is less one of biomass and more one of providing what the fish expect and thus need to be healthy, thinking of numbers. There is clear scientific evidence now that shoaling fish in small groups are continually under more tress and show increased aggression. They also show a latency to feed. The group sizes tested were three, five and ten. The groups of ten showed none of these symptoms. Kept in decent sized groups, shoaling fish will always be healthier and have less impact on the tank's biological system. And each other.

We feed out fish way too much. In the wild fish are searching for food, and do not know when they may again find it, so they eat what they find (within reason). They do not need myuch food beyond this. They are endotherms, so they do not need a lot of food energy to produce heat.

 

[Fishies4Ever]

Your tank is beautiful! Someone said above that some kind of ram cichlids pair would look really nice. A large school of red flame tetras would also look really nice in my opinion.

 

[vince82]

When shoaling fish are stressed they tighten the group--not otherwise. So this means deliberately causing stress to the fish. No aquarist should ever take that road. It is inhumane.

Dither fish are not the same thing. And the idea of dither fish is to cause less stress to the cichlids. That is positive.

I thought that to be beneficial to both, hence why neons and cardinals and other tetras are so very often kept with cichlids, angelfish, discus etc.
Can you point me to an article explaining the difference?

On this, I would note that the issue is less one of biomass and more one of providing what the fish expect and thus need to be healthy, thinking of numbers. There is clear scientific evidence now that shoaling fish in small groups are continually under more tress and show increased aggression. They also show a latency to feed. The group sizes tested were three, five and ten. The groups of ten showed none of these symptoms. Kept in decent sized groups, shoaling fish will always be healthier and have less impact on the tank's biological system. And each other.

Is it not what I said I want to do?
* 8-10 corydoras (single species, going with Julii because I rescued them from a local guy that did not want them anymore)
* 8-10 otocinclus
* single species group of 20 tetras
* small group of cichlids (2F, 1M)
limiting variety allows larger numbers in order to keep the fishes healthy.
Plenty of woods, rock hidings, shaded areas, a large cave, and a grazing/free swimming area should account for the needs of all fishes in this list.

* neocaridina: I like them for their cleaning help, but I am perfectly ok only putting the less colourful specimens in this tank and if they survive good, if they are preyed upon still good. In the past my experience has always been that they tend to make it.

We feed out fish way too much. In the wild fish are searching for food, and do not know when they may again find it, so they eat what they find (within reason). They do not need myuch food beyond this. They are endotherms, so they do not need a lot of food energy to produce heat

I think I have my feeding practices quite balanced, using mostly a present but stable snail population as indicator.

 

[Byron]

I thought that to be beneficial to both, hence why neons and cardinals and other tetras are so very often kept with cichlids, angelfish, discus etc.
Can you point me to an article explaining the difference?

It is common advice from cichlid sources and authorities that with the dwarf species the presence of upper level "dither" fish is an advantage. This allays some (at least) of the natural shyness and skittishness of many dwarf cichlids. In reverse, I have never come across anyone saying this somehow benefits the dither fish. That makes no sense, unless I'm missing something.

On the second point, you had stated "And bioload wise, I think that is an adequate amount of fish per volume of water." I am merely noting that this is not the overriding concern, it is providing what the species needs. That may have been understood, ignore it if so.

 

[anewbie]

There are infinite options; personally i prefer smaller fishes and would consider building a colony of apistogramma borelli. Not sure how many males you could safely keep maybe 3 - but more scapeing on the other side would be required - if well scaped perhaps 5. I'd start with a few from different sources and then keep a generation of frys. With this fish the only cory I would consider are pygmy since they will understand territory and do their best to avoid confrontation - other cory tend to constant wander into territories increasing stress level. For the top one would pick their favorite species of pencil fishes though you could consider ember tetra, kubotai rasbora (not habitat compatible being an asian fish but work well with water/temp requirements and stick near the top so won't prey on frys).
-
There are completely different routes could you take ranging from pick of favorite species fo dwarf cichild, festums/angels, .... too many options to list - or you could drop cichild all together and go with cory and pleco and other cat fishes. I guess once we understood what route you wanted to go then it becomes easier.
-
As a general rule you should not mix dwarf cichild with cory; but larger cichild tend to work. This has to do with how they breed - angels for example tend to lay their eggs 'high' and guard that area; most (not all) dwarf cichild will lay the eggs low and the cory won't respect their territory.
-
Also you mentioned 2f/1m; this is highly species dependent. For example gbr are pair forming and the third one out will be unwelcomed. Angels are also pair forming; in the dwarf arena agasizzi are for example polygamous with the male establishing a territory and females entering to breed but as previously mentioned you will not want cory. otto are less of an issue. pleco are worse than cory.

 

[vince82]

Mmmmmm did not think about cory and territory for dwarf cyclids.. Also.. ehm... here I f-ed up: the cave dwarf cichlids might choose as shaded nesting site is also where the filter intake lives (hidden from sight). I might address the filter just with a sponge on the intake.
My initial considerations were to do a betta sorority and set that area with rocks that have spaces in between where fishes could hide, and reproduction/frys was not taken into account. Then I changed my mind after reading more about sororities.

I do have some pigmy corys but I was considering having them in a different tank. I really like the Julii in here, left that big beachy area specifically for them.

The tank is 16 inches tall only (42x18x16), do you think that is adequate for angelfish? I won't likely buy a taller long tank any time soon. My next tank in planning is a 20 inch cube, which I don't think is enough swimming space for angels.

 

[anewbie]

Mmmmmm did not think about cory and territory for dwarf cyclids.. Also.. ehm... here I f-ed up: the cave dwarf cichlids might choose as shaded nesting site is also where the filter intake lives (hidden from sight). I might address the filter just with a sponge on the intake.
My initial considerations were to do a betta sorority and set that area with rocks that have spaces in between where fishes could hide, and reproduction/frys was not taken into account. Then I changed my mind after reading more about sororities.

I do have some pigmy corys but I was considering having them in a different tank. I really like the Julii in here, left that big beachy area specifically for them.

The tank is 16 inches tall only (42x18x16), do you think that is adequate for angelfish? I won't likely buy a taller long tank any time soon. My next tank in planning is a 20 inch cube, which I don't think is enough swimming space for angels.

No the tank is not suitable for angels; it is like a longer 40B (in usa); in fact it is not that great for most larger cichild due to height. Someone else might know of a suitable dwarf cichild to mix with cory as I can't think of one off the top of my head - i will note that beyond that you have to decide on a pair forming species if you go that route or polygamous - of course one suggest you buy a few young ones and let them pair off (if pair forming).

There are keyhole cichilds but they prefer a more densely planted aquarium being very shy but their shy behavior also means they tend to be less aggressive. For the last couple of years i've been looking mostly at various apistogramma species as well as Laetacara but these are mostly pair forming - at least the species i kept and none are compatible with general cory (though I did keep hongsloi with sterbai and they chose to lay their eggs high - which surprise me - btw they lean towards pairing but male can be opportunity polygamous. Also you might want to soften your water a little for them if you want frys (eggs to hatch) I think you want a tds around 80.

 

[vince82]

I think the more responsible choice might be juvenile bolivian rams and pair forming.
Surface wise there would be space for 2 couples, but with the Corys in the mix maybe it's really only space for one pair

 

[Byron]

Corydoras in with cichlids will likely mean no fry if the cichlids should spawn, no idea if that is wanted or not. But cichlids are diurnal, whereas cories are out scampering about during total darkness when the cichlids cannot possibly defend eggs or fry. I had a Bolivian pair spawn four times, first three the cories got the eggs on the first or second night, and in the last they got the fry overnight. The male Bolivian then killed the female. They had not bonded successfully, something I did not understand back then, and he had just had enough.

Both species of ram must select their mate from a group (works both ways) and bond. Even this sometimes end in a quick divorce. My example above was in a 5-foot 115g tank, thickly planted. The male Bolivian lived into his eleventh year, a pretty good feat for a fish with a 4-5 or 8-year lifespan, depending whom one follows. Bolivian makes an excellent dwarf cichlid as the sole cichlid in a tank of peaceful characins, cories, etc. The cichlid very clearly considered the entire tank "his," and the characins knew it very well. But his authority never had to be defended physically, and everyone seemed quite happy with the arrangement.

Angelfish are not suited as noted by above member.

 

[vince82]

Agree on angels. I asked because they were mentioned and because I was doubtful the tank had the appropriate space vertically.

Some plants have just been planted and the tank is gonna be a lot fuller and bushier than it is now in about a month time. There is still gonna be a 30% of it free for the tetras to swim and the corys to graze but the planted part will be quite full.

Here's a brief video with some explanation